Using SIDS/STARS with MS Flight Planner

[Paul J 349]

Hi all; maybe a dumb question; I don't know. I've been using the sim since FS 1.1 for dos, but it's only recently that I've begun to use (read "afford") the "real" aircraft like the DreamFleet 727, Megascenery SOCAL, FlyTampa KSAN, KSFO, FSPassengers, etc.. - and it's just great! The problem I have is understanding why - in the sim - we have all the published charts, SIDS and STARS, etc, yet, when after creating and filing a flight plan one is totally under the control of ATC right from the takeoff at say KSFO, to the handoff to your destination's (KSAN) ILS approach? It seems one cannot choose a particular departure, cannot choose, ahead of time, a particular standard arrival, or have any influence other than the choice to cancel the plan altogether. What is the point of reading and planning if all one does is to initiate a series of ATC "climb, runway heading to 5000", "turn left heading 125" or "descend to 5000" commands which, if followed - will result in you entering an ILS funnel somewhere down the road. It seems one does absolutely no navigation by referencing the charts whatsoever. Am I the only one who is puzzled by this, or am I just not understanding the relationship between (FS) ATC and these charts, or perhaps how to use the flight planner? Thanks for any insights folks.

[Guest ha5mvo]

Hi,FS ATC DOES NOT support SIDs or STARs.there are very few airports in which you can choose an approach with a transition - in which case you will be cleared to your transition Navaid.It is possible to write xml files to facilitate that option for other airports as well, although AFAIK there are not too many of these custom files available (most, if not all are courtesy of Jim Vile).So your options are either to ignore ATCs vectoring (and nag) or cancel IFR altogether.//Michael

[Manny 1,293]

90% of your real life IFR would be like the Flight Sim.. They would vector you around...and then funnel you into the ILS.Manny

[Paul J 349]

Well - Shucks, Darn and Heck!. Thank you both for these answers. I really thought this was a case of me truly being dumb, but maybe not. OK - what do most people do - high or low altitude airways? or VOR/NDB to VOR/NDB, perhaps requesting a higher altitude? Perhaps the best way is to just forget about ATC altogether, crank up the (AV6 & FE) overcast and do the real nav? I guess this is the way to do it. D'you suppose FSX will support SIDS/STARS?

[Guest Kingair315]

If you prefer to use SIDS/STARS you could pick up FSNAV, which not only uses them in creating flight plans, but you can get updates to install that add to them. Version 3 I believe is still available free. But you will probably want the paid version eventually, and it is worth MUCH more than the price to me. I'd reccomend you just buy it to begin with.It creates your flight plan, when you can then export to the FS, and fly. Just do not "examine" it in the FS, as that could change it, just load it.

[jvile 1]

You can fly any DP, STAR, or Transistion in the default FS9 under the control of the default FS9 ATC with ABSOLUTLY NO 3rd party addons.MS gave us a very powerful Navigation Planning system just as in real world if we learn how to use it.As an example I will list a few of the steps to fly the worlds busiest STAR which is the MACEY2 Arrival into Atlanta, GA.My Flight is KJFK to KATL at FL320. Weather at KATL is clear with winds from the west at 8kts. I open the FPlanner tool in FS9 and create a FP from JFK to ATL at 32,000 ft. I select the high Altitude Jetways route and let FS9 plot the FP. At this point I see all the VOR's and Intersections in a list that FS9 seleted by default which I now need to edit.When I look at the MACEY2 arrival chart the first entrance point to the STAR is MOL VOR (Montebello) in Virginia which is over 350N miles away from Atlanta. I grab the red line that shows my route of flight and with the mouse I snap it to the MOL VOR. Then you delete every single Intersection and VOR below the new inserted MOL that was added to the Flight Plan leaving the last one which is the Start Location of a runway as seen with AFCAD.Now I use the mouse once again to snap to the ODF VOR (Foothills), then MACEY Intersection, then WOMAC Intersection and last the LOGEN Intersection. The STAR is now part of the Flightplan that ATC honors but you are not finished. You have to transistion off the STAR arrival as in real world (USA) and get ATC to understand you don't want the Novice vectors to final (funnel) approach.The Transistion I want is for Runway 26R from the LOGEN intersection and it is called the ANOGE as per either the GPS or RNAV arrival. After LOGEN intersection I now snap to that waypoint completing my Flightplan that will be filed with ATC as soon as I hit the save button. I could also do the same thing when departing JFK and add the correct DP in the FP using the charts and snapping to the proper waypoints.Now for the flight. Depart JFK as per the FP that you filed in FS9 using a DP if you added it. ATC will monitor your flight as you cross over the MOL VOR at FL320. You will continue to be required to fly the STAR and about 110 NM (the visual zone in FS9) from Atlanta, ATC will start your descent which is based on a 1.3 to 1 descent profile (passenger comfort). As you near the MACEY Intersection ATC is going to tell you that RWY 26R is the active and they will (BY FS9 DEFAULT) want to vector you to the, as you put it the funnel. DECLINE, DECLINE, DECLINE as per the ATC popup window. This is a Novice type ILS approach to RWY26R with ATC hand holding procedures. If you DECLINE the NOVICE approach then ATC in FS9 fiqures you are now as smart as they are and you know exactly what you (the pilot) want.Using the popup ATC window request the ANOGE Transistion for either the GPS or RNAV approach to RWY 26R (based on type airplane radio NAV complexity).ATC will clear you off the MACEY2 STAR arrival and request you fly "direct to" ANOGE at the proper transistion altitude. Tune the radio to the ILS freq and when inbound on the ANOGE Transistion contact Tower and fly the ILS for RWY 26R. I also have written XML database files so all AI Traffic fly the MACEY2 arrival (including all STAR's for KATL) as per the arrival charts. This is still in beta but not only can the User plane fly STAR's but so can AI planes if the STAR is written for AI Traffic. At the present time ATC uses the NOVICE vectors to final for all AI Traffic. I am also waiting to see what FSX does with all the tags that are not being used but written in the approach database when FS9 was released.

[scott967 62]

Also, if you want a different runway than ATC is offering, select the desired runway first from the menu, then the approach, then the transisiton, otherwise you can get your approach with "sidestep" to the original runway, instead of what you wanted.scott s..

[Guest ha5mvo]

Jim,Maybe I didn't get it right, but the way I understand it (and as much as my experience goes), "implanting" the STAR into the flightplan is limited by that, that the last waypoint should be at a considerable distance from the arrival airport. Otherwise FS ATC will start its funneling even if there are waypoints abeam.Like you said, the approach option is a good way to go about it - but its limited to a rather small number of airports.all the best!!//Michael

[RFields5421 1]

limited to a rather small number of airports.Yes - it is limited to only those airports which had Instrument Approach procedures in the Jeppensen Worldwide database in the fall of 2002, including all the US FAA charted airports, - about 99.5% of the world's commercial airports.However, to use the process really effectivelly, you need to (a) look at charts and approach plates when you plan your flight, and (:( examine all the approaches for the destination airport in FS to understand which ones are present and what the transitions are.I've programmed a real world bizjet FMS - with the pilot watching my every move of course. There is a lot of checking and verification before entering the data in the FMS.A real world pilot has to understand every intersection and every possible direct to instruction which ATC might issue.Even with an FMS on a STAR - they keep the plates for the airport handy.

[Guest ha5mvo]

Reggie, perhaps there is some misunderstanding here....are you saying that 99.5% of all commercial airports have their approach procedures coded for FS9's ATC??

[RFields5421 1]

Yes, now the data is out dated - approx Oct 2002.And the FSX data will be April 2005 due to the lead time necessary to redesign the world.But LFPB Localizer Rwy 25, PHNL Offset LDA Rwy 26L, HAAB VOR/DME Rwy 25L, EGLC ILS Rwy 10, KAGO NDB Rwy 36 are just some of the approaches I've used recently which are in the code for FS2004.If you have SimPlates, or a fall 2002 Jeppsen set, or the Fall 2002 FAA Terminal Procedures charts - they are in FS2004 in almost all cases.I can't run FS at work, but I can decompile and check the APnnnnn.bgl file - pick an airport and I'll tell you what's in the default.

[Paul J 349]

Aaahh - now we're cooking! Many thanks all who replied - I didn't expect the super responses, short or long; and many thanks for this one, Jim; this is exactly what I needed. You've written a veritable nav course here, and I'll bet I'm not the only one who's very grateful.regards,

[Guest neslesman]

Wow Jim you just answered exactly what I was trying to get my head around the last couple days. I've been learning FS Navigator and I just love it, and I couldn't see how to tie it in with ATC and an FS flight plan that would add so much to the sim. I seriously doubted that many of the waypoints, intersections etc. in FS Nav flight plans would be in FS9 but now it makes good sense that they should be.You just came up with the answer, and I'm happier than heck. One more copied thread for my "knowledge" file that is getting thicker by the minute.FS Navigator is falling into place real well for me as a freshman to flight simming. It's got a great interface, no surprises, works smoothly and is providing me with just exactly what I wanted at this stage of my virtual fly career.

[jvile 1]

Hi MichaelWhat you said>>FS ATC DOES NOT support SIDs or STARs. is very TRUE in the default FS9.Reggie has added many good comments and I will just follow up with a few additional issues.There are no STAR/DP's in the Approach database of FS9. So that means you can't approach a airport and ask ATC for a STAR arrival. BUT, I think some of the problems are related to understanding a true STAR vs a Instrument Approach Procedure (IAP).What is written in the FS9 database is all the IAP's (dated as per Reggie's post) with an additional section called Transistions for the IAP. In some Country's the IAP and the Tranistions associated with the IAP's are also called STAR's but in the truest sense are still multiple entry IAP's. This can be seen at EHAM. Based on the inbound heading at EHAM you have 3 choices in FS9 on what IAP you want to use. The ARTIP waypoint IAP arriving from the NE. SUGOL waypoint IAP arriving from the NW and the RIVER waypoint IAP arriving from the South. The reason we call these arrivals IAP's is because they are Transistions to the Initial Approach Fix (IAF) for each different runway. A STAR does not terminate at the IAF for the runway but terminates at a waypoint prior to the IAF of a runway.In my example above we are enroute from JFK on the FP airway and we have filed the MACEY2 STAR arrival as part of the actual FP. WHY? Because as you noted above FS9 does not know what a STAR is. When we cross over the MOL VOR which is the entry point for the STAR ATC does not recognize this as a STAR but we the Pilot know it is the STAR.There are 4 navigation procedures to landing on the ILS of a runway once in Flight at enroute altitude. First is the enroute portion of the flight. Second phase is the STAR which gets everybody off the enroute portion and funneled toward a entrance point to the STAR which is normally a VORDME. As we fly the STAR we know it is going to end at some type of waypoint intersection (USA) about 30 miles from the runway. Now that requies a IAP Transistion phase to the IAF which then requires us to fly the ILS and land safely on the runway.1. Enroute2. STAR3. Transistion to an IAF for the runway4. IAP chart (ILS, VOR, NDB, etc)The 3rd phase is also misunderstood in FS9 because the ATC controller is software.Some mostly fly the enroute FlightPlan and then use the default FS9 ATC hand holding "Vectors to Final" Transistion (1, 3 by default and 4 above). This starts to occur at about 60 miles from the airport when we are handed off to the Approach Controller. This is also FS9's default transistion and as noted by others in this thread causes everyone to be funneled on a 30 degree offset heading toward intercepting the ILS.Even though the Transistions are in the FS9 database we must know they exsist before hand and decline any type default vectors to final and ask for the proper transistion based on our route of flight (no.3).So how do I know what Transistions are available at my destination based on the DP/STAR that I programmed? When sitting on the ground at JFK I load the GPS receiver that MS gave us and change the default KJFK by typing in KATL. I now can look at each runway and see what Transistions exsist and a graphical map for navigation planning. The listed Transistions for each runway and type instrument approach that are listed in the APnnnnnnnn.bgl for that airport show up in the GPS receiver.Every single airport in the default FS9 database that has some kind of precision or non-precision IAP in most cases also have transistions associated so I can select the proper one based on inbound headings. Even the small airports in the database that have a NDB or NDBDME IAP have different Transistions in FS9 as per the Jeppensen charts. There is a Hooters cup race at the Jefferson Speedway in Georgia several times each year. We can jump in the Lear at Haggerstown, MD and file the FP so The Macey2 arrival (STAR) is honored by ATC. Once we reach the WOMAC intersection flying the STAR we then ask ATC for the WOMAC Transistion to the NDB RWY 34 at Jackson Co. Airport. If I "LOAD" and "ACTIVATE" the Transistion in the GPS receiver then the autopilot will fly the entire FP if the GPS switch is coupled up to the NAV of the autopilot. By doing this helps many Pilots to learn how to execute any type approach written in the database.hope this is also helpful

[Guest JTEK99]

>hope this is also helpfulJim:An outstanding post which clarifies more for the beginning/median user than any I've seen.It was, indeed, MOST helpful. Thanks!