AI Aircraft crash into mountains.

[hjwalter 25]

Hi all,In Austria the beautifull Innsbruck airport (LOWI) is situated in a long deep valley. AI aircraft departing there from runway 8 all turn left or right depending on their destination, at far too low altitudes to be able to get out of the valley first and then they crash into my mesh scenery mountains.I understand fully that this is the standard FS9 AI engine doing it's work "correctly" but I was wondering if there was any way to tweak e.g. the AFCAD data of LOWI in order to keep these AI aircraft climbing longer on the runway heading before making their turns.Tweaking the AI aircraft's vertcal speed rates in their respective .cfg files does not seem to help very much.Has anyone got any ideas ?Hans

[Willy 0]

Hello HansThere is a fix for the airport Innsbruck (LOWI).Look here on the library files and do a search for LOWI or search for the file "lowi_app_jv.zip".Maybe this will help you.Willy

[RFields5421 1]

Jim's file helps with approaches - but for takeoff - no one has found anything yet - and there are a lot of airports world wide which do this.The turn into the mountain is apparently triggered by the change in frequency to the center controller and is a function of altitude above the runway - so a longer runway or higher rate of climb don't change anything - at X altitude the AI aircraft is going to contact center and be told to turn.Watch out - they will also tell you to turn your flyable aircraft into mountains.

[Midnight Music 252]

My AI fly through the mountains. Is it because I have crash turned off?Lee

[JSkorna 137]

Hi,Nope, AI aircraft cannot crash and show damage. They just fly through stuff as if it wasn't there.Hope this helps,Jimhttp://www.hifisim.com/Active Sky V6 Development Team Active Sky V6 Proud SupporterHiFi Beta TeamRadar Contact Supporter: http://www.jdtllc.com/AirSource Member: http://www.air-source.us/FSEconomy Member:http://www.fseconomy.com/

[hjwalter 25]

Thanks for all your reactions.Yes, after take off in my flyable aircraft at more than one airport comparable with LOWI, standard FS9 ATC quite often instructs me to crash into mountains, just like the AI aircraft do. Let's hope FSX's AI engine has improved somewhat on these "mishaps". In the meantime flying in VFR mode and without ATC seems to be the only solution. One can always call ATC up again when at cruising altitude. With Jim Vile's LOWI files, AI aircraft approaching runway 8 from a westerly direction, descend correctly through the valley and land normally. Fantastic to watch, also at Jim's wonderfull Hong Kong Kai Tak (re-opened VHXX) airport. However, other than at Kai Tak where all approaching AI aircraft seem to go through a quite far out fixed point from which they all seem to be directed to the "entrance" of his spectacular approach to runway 13, AI aircraft approaching LOWI from other directions than from the West, do not seem to have such a "fixed entrance point" but enter what looks like a left handed downwind pattern but at altitudes which are far too high, probably because of the high mountains in the immediate vicinity. This causes them not to land after their short turn to final for runway 8 but to fly on, even although ATC has cleared them for landing. Then a strange thing occurs. The FS9 AI engine evidently keeps those aircraft in some kind of final approach or "on the runway" status thereby blocking all further take offs and landings at LOWI indefinitely. Alas !I follow AI aircraft from a parked military jet equipted with Eric Marciano's radar system. This permits me to monitor departing and approaching AI aircraft upto 40 miles around LOWI, including their IDs, altitudes, vertical and forward speeds. I have assumed upto now that after their take offs from LOWI followed by their turns, the AI aicraft have actually crashed into the mountains because they suddenly disappear from the radar screen at altitudes below the mountain tops and at positions on their slopes. I have no evidence that they have flown straight through such mountains.O.K. Jim, I'll put up with the AI crashes after take off but what would it take for you to have another good look at LOWI especially at what I have called the "fixed entrance point" to which all AI aircraft from all directions are automatically attracted and from where the approach to runway 8 can, in all cases, correctly be made ? I must admit though, that there's always the possibility that I've done something wrong myself with the installation of your LOWI files and that I'm trying to kick open your already open door. If so, I accept your wrath beforehand.Friendly regardsHans

[JSkorna 137]

Hi,I am not the same Jim that has the skills to design all that good stuff, so I can't help you there! But if you used Active Sky for your weather I could help you out!!Hope this helps,Jimhttp://www.hifisim.com/Active Sky V6 Development Team Active Sky V6 Proud SupporterHiFi Beta TeamRadar Contact Supporter: http://www.jdtllc.com/AirSource Member: http://www.air-source.us/FSEconomy Member:http://www.fseconomy.com/

[jvile 1]

HansNo wrath on this end but I am having a hard time understanding where you see the problem. Let me explain what I did so the radar gauge can confirm my approaches.RWY 26 ---If you slew up to 10,000 ft and EAST from LOWI find the D066G waypoint using the default GPS receiver. This is the entrance point for the AI Planes. Place the plane that is in slew on a 240 heading at the DO66G waypoint. Now as you slew the plane on a heading of 240 degrees you should also cross over the JEV waypoint. These 2 waypoints are what the AI Planes are seeking when winds are from the west and then they fly a heading of 240 degrees down the valley heading West. When the AI get close to the 26 Runway they will turn and align to the runway for a landing. The offset is 20 degrees meaning the AI are flying a heading of 240 and the turn for runway alignment is 260 degrees.End result for RWY 26 is ATC descends the AI to 10,000 ft. then on a 30 degree offset of 240 degrees which will either be 210 or 270 degrees for the entrance point. Once they reach the DO66G waypoint they head down the valley on a 240 degree heading and then turn to 260 degrees for alignment and landing.This approach for AI is slightly different then what the User plane should fly. The heading for the User plane to runway 26 is 256 degrees then a turn to final which is 260 degrees. User plane should always ask for the LOC or GPS approach to RWY 26 and never my fake ILS.RWY 8 -----That is a total different set of flying rules for the AI and User airplane. The User must fly the Localizer as per the charts from 11,500 ft (from over the mountains west of LOWI) on a heading of 068 degrees. This requires passing LOWI and then turning to the right for a right downwind at RUM marker. Fly the right downwind and pass LOWI again and then a right turn to short final. There is no way that I can get AI to fly that type approach. First I had to find a entrance point that AI could fly towards LOWI and land on RWY 8. All the mountains west of LOWI are about 12,000 ft high.Slew NW of LOWI up the valley (at 13,000 ft.) until you see the LOJVI (IAF) waypoint. That is the entrance for AI which at that point they will fly a heading of 114 degrees down the valley and towards LOJVF waypoint (FAF). This was the only entrance I could use based on such a high altitude over the mountains (13,000 ft.) and distance needed to desend to airport elevation.A slight problem does exsist with this type AI approach. The LOJVI and LOJVF are not in alignment with the runway heading but in alignment with 114 degrees which is the offset to runway 8. AI Planes coming from the West, South and East will appear to fly a downwind of 294 degrees and then do a 180 degree turn and intercept the 114 degree inbound heading. AI Planes coming from the North look much better because they are already on the 30 degree offset for 114 degree inbound heading to RWY 8.I can control altitude and heading for AI if AI go missed. But like Reggie said, we have not found away to control AI on departure. I know in the past you have spent time studing some of my approaches. I think you did a video. Help me out here and give me some feedback on what I could do better. Also now that you know where I placed the entrance points for AI, watch the radar and see if the behavior of the AI is correct or not correct.All help is appreciated with some of these complex approaches for AI.

[hjwalter 25]

Hi there Jim,Thanks for your lengthy explanation.First of all I am not the one who made the video but just a fan of your work and am always trying to improve the airport scenery for which you have intended it. This is e.g. the reason for my initial post about departing AIs denting the mountains around LOWI.I've changed the wind direction at LOWI to about 260 degrees and have been watching my radar gauge for hours. Almost all approaches from the East work fine just as you intended but I do have some possible feed back for you. According to my radar gauge, approaching AIs for runway 26 are approx. at 10000 feet at 30 miles, 8000 feet at 20 miles, 5000 feet at 10 miles and 3300 feet at 5 miles. All these altitudes are MSL. Taking into account that the runway 8/26 surface at LOWI is at 1900 feet then it seems that your glide slope is rather flat for such an extremely mountainous area. However, all AIs which have entered your Easterly entry point do land correctly and I certainly enjoy watching them.As I am not experienced at all with the GPS receiver functions, I rely strongly on my radar gauge and from that it seems that your runway 26 entry point is more than 40 miles away. Am I correct ? I ask you this because some AIs approach LOWI from any direction at high altitudes, they change course in the vicinity of the airport and then fly off my radar screen (max 40 miles), only to reappear again after about 10 to 15 minutes at the correct altitude and on the correct approach course. WOW !!However, there are still some AI flight plans somewhere in my system that cannot be found in my TTools flight plan files and seem to be exactly those which make the incorrect approaches. I'm now searching my vast scenery collection for a hidden traffic file in order to root these out. In this respect I was also wondering if it could be possible that when I open my saved "flight" with the military jet and it's radar gauge parked at LOWI, that I catch one or more of these (offending) AIs already in the air, and because of that they somehow cannot be directed to your entry points. It may also be that they are flying VFR instead of IFR because ATC directs them to the left or right hand patterns instead of the ILS and, clears them for landing before they crash into the mountains. Anyway, to test this I must find and root them out of my system first.I've also been testing take offs from LOWI Runway 26 by using a rather primitive method but in any case the AIs concerned now no longer dent the mountains on either side of the valley and ..... on their way back to LOWI they return via the correct entry points and land normally. I did this by creating three new AI flight plans with TTools from LOWI to LFGA, LFSN and LFJL and directly back. I chose these three airports for the simple reason that they are situated at approx. 290 degrees from the end of runway 26 and when the turns are made after take off the AIs fly along this heading straight towards their destinations, thereby climbing out of the valley without mishaps.My idea is now to create a fake or previously non existent airport as close as possible to LOWI, somewhere along that 290 degrees heading, using AFCAD and to include it as the first airport in any further flight plans from LOWI, also if LOWI is a stop over in a flight plan originating elswehere. Well, I did say it was primitive but the main thing is that this idea should stop spoiling the visable AI flight movements at LOWI and I will agree with you immediately that such flights will never be able to conform to any real airline schedules.What are your views on all this Jim ?RegardsHans

[RogerPotie 0]

Join the club. I also "died" in a crash in that valley. Maybe even twice.

[hjwalter 25]

Hi Jim,Well, I eventually found the offending traffic file, believe it or not, in a .... Brazilian !!! airport scenery folder. After deleting it, the remaining AIs at LOWI started behaving a lot more as expected in Jim Vile's LOWI environment. No more AI Cessnas and Mooneys flying !! VFR !! between LOWI and Brazil !! Also, all remaining (IFR) AI's now follow Jim Vile's approach routes correctly and I must, at this stage, apologise to Jim for initially suspecting his fantastic piece of work when all along, the problems were caused from within my own FS9.I changed all destinations of the remaining AIs with TTools so that now they all depart from runway 26 and fly on a heading of about 290 degrees, thereby climbing out of the valley as they should. This may not be totally realistic from an airline schedule point of view but at least the departing traffic now no longer crash into the mountains.However, departing from LOWI in a flyable aircraft must remain in VFR mode because otherwise ATC will still send you crashing into the mountains but I feel this is only a small price to pay when flying in and around such beautiful LOWI scenery especially when enhanced by Jim Vile's approaches.And now as a finishing touch, can anyone advise me on a good Innsbruck (LOWI) airport scenery ?RegardsHans

[jvile 1]

>Also, all remaining (IFR) AI's now follow Jim Vile's >approach routes correctly and I must, >at this stage, apologise to Jim for >initially suspecting his fantastic piece >of work when all along, the problems >were caused from within my own FS9.HansI get a lot of mail telling me my approaches don't work right for some Users. I try and tutor those indiviuals to find the offending files that were added to FS9 which can cause a problem. In your case you continued to investigate until searching out what caused your issue. No apology needed, just glad you are getting better results.I used Holger Sandmann's LOWI scenery (Freeware) when developing the approaches for LOWI. It enhances the town of Innsbruck and surroundings but not the airport itself. I also tested with several different mesh that are available. FS9 rounds off the tops of the mountains and some of the 3rd party mesh/terrain put peaks in the mountain ranges.

[ronzie 21]

For payware it was included with one of the Aerosoft (www.aerosoft.com) packages including German airports one as a bonus. This way you can get some nice departure airports as well. I have not flown it but did look at the AFCAD to check out the localizer offsets. I do not know how the scenery designers implemented things addressed in Jim Viles 's replies here.They distribute but do not publish an Austrian airport package that also contains it.