Current thoughts on ATC programs

[RALF9636 1,955]

42 minutes ago, Lorby_SI said:

Hello @ll,

a question/thoughts about the real world procedures. I can't shake the feeling that we may be overrating features in those ATC programs that aren't that common in the real world in the first place. 

They way I used to know commercial ATC, SIDs and STARs are not assigned "on the fly" a lot, at least not on mid range or short routes. Your flight plan is handed to you from dispatch, complete with SID and STAR from the beginning. You are only allowed to start your engines when/if the whole flight plan has been cleared through every ATC station on the way, including the destination airport. The main purpose being, that everyone is always aware of where and when you are supposed to be. 

Many airlines have their preferred approach routes too, that they will always use if they can get them. So many pilots are always flying the same routes and approaches, day in, day out, knowing them by heart (and still having to repeat them to each other every day, again and again).

When you are nearing your destination, ATC knows where to expect you, due to the STAR that you had in your flight plan that they cleared. If the weather changed, and the transition cannot be flown, they would in most cases just vector you in.

But that IMHO was how it worked years ago. So the question is to those in the know about the actual commercial operations today: how often does it actually happen that you are assigned a new STAR, different from the one on your flight plan? Or does it all work differently these days anyway?

Best regards

 

Well said. That is exactly what the way PF3 handles SID and STAR is based on.

Nevertheless it would be interesting to have some input from real world experience on this.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,954]

47 minutes ago, Lorby_SI said:

Hello @ll,

a question/thoughts about the real world procedures. I can't shake the feeling that we may be overrating features in those ATC programs that aren't that common in the real world in the first place. 

They way I used to know commercial ATC, SIDs and STARs are not assigned "on the fly" a lot, at least not on mid range or short routes. Your flight plan is handed to you from dispatch, complete with SID and STAR from the beginning.

I can only speak from personal experiences listening to ATC at Manchester (EGCC). The SID will be given by Clearance and should not be part of the plan which is generic. I'm not sure how the company would know what the weather conditions are when the plan is passed to the crew. And conditions can change quite quickly. I have heard controllers advise a change of runway which would obviously involve a change of SID.

I can't comment on STARs as I don't listen to Approach much.

[Lorby_SI 2,038]

4 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

The SID will be given by Clearance a

Hello Ray,

is it? Or do they give the pilots clearance for the SID that is on the plan, and only advise them otherwise if weather makes it necessary?

My point is, that you can't just depart whenever and wherever you want. Your slot depends on your route being cleared in total, otherwise you may get in conflict with other traffic at airway crossings etc.. And if that is indeed the case, ATC can't just "assign" SIDs and STARs, the whole flight would have to be rescheduled (and all others around it?) But maybe I got that wrong. (Still, I do know that it used to be like that, 20 odd years ago).

Best regards

Edited October 18, 2018 by Lorby_SI

[Ray Proudfoot 8,954]

Hi Oliver,

I’ll check with a friend who flies for Virgin for confirmation. But given the SIDs around Manchester extend outwards up to a max of around 25nm I would expect the first part of the departure to be handled locally. The aircraft will not fly above their initial clearance - usually 6000ft at MAN - so wouldn’t interfere with overhead traffic.

Maybe the route only starts at the end point of the SID.

[Lorby_SI 2,038]

49 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Hi Oliver,

I’ll check with a friend who flies for Virgin for confirmation. But given the SIDs around Manchester extend outwards up to a max of around 25nm I would expect the first part of the departure to be handled locally. The aircraft will not fly above their initial clearance - usually 6000ft at MAN - so wouldn’t interfere with overhead traffic. 

Maybe the route only starts at the end point of the SID.

Hello Ray,

that would be great to get real world input! From my understanding "Clearance" is clearing you to use the flight plan that your dispatcher submitted earier on, and maybe to clear that plan with all parties concerned too (someone definitely does)? And you only have a limited window for asking them, if you miss it, you won't be cleared, and your flight is delayed until your new flight plan has again been confirmed by all ATC stations- which is why it takes so long to reschedule a flight that got delayed at the gate (and why airline staff are getting restless when the slot time starts running out). But in the scenario you describe, I can imagine them assigning SIDs when the weather is really crazy, until dispatch catches up with the changed weather conditions.

From what I know, the communication with Clearance always contains the part about the SID, even if both, the controller and the pilot, already know which one it is. Just like the pilot and the FO always have to go through the departure briefing, even if they have flown that same sector using the same SID every day of the past week. Long distance is probably different.

Long ago, my father was a military air traffic controller, and my uncle was captain for a very large airline - those two and the whole "environment" have been my primary sources of information since the early days. Naturally, things change over time...

Best regards

Edited October 18, 2018 by Lorby_SI

[Ray Proudfoot 8,954]

Here's the reply from my friend who is watching the discussion...

Yes basically the company flight planning dept files the flight plan with ATC and this includes the SID they, the company, would LIKE you to fly. When it comes to the actual operation it’s ATC who will issue the actual SID or departure to be flown. This for us is normally issued via PDC ACARS ( pre departure clearance).

A couple of weeks ago for example the MCT VOR was out of service and although a EKLAD 1Y departure was filed it couldn’t technically be flown so ATC issued a bespoke clearance of climb straight ahead to 5000ft. 

You were right Oliver in saying the company provide the SID but of course ATC have the final say dependent on weather conditions. And exceptional circumstances will also require non-standard instructions as the second para shows.

Now when it comes to ATC programs in P3D etc. it would be a brave man (or woman!) who enters the plan including the SID into the FMC before contacting Clearance.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Ray Proudfoot

[Guest]

So the company may ask for a SID they want but in the end ATC decides which one it will be. One thing is for sure though: the pilot has nothing to say about it. Which is why I prefer ProATC over PF3 when it comes to SIDs (and STARs) because it isn't a pilot's job to figure out a SID (and STAR) himself and to tell ATC what he wants them to tell him. 😉 Easy as it may be to figure out a proper procedure, it just isn't realistic to do it yourself. Then again... it also isn't realistic to stick to the plan from A to Z: in that regard PF3's randomizer is a nice feature.

Sigh... seems you can't get it all in one package yet... 😶

[RALF9636 1,955]

52 minutes ago, J van E said:

So the company may ask for a SID they want but in the end ATC decides which one it will be. One thing is for sure though: the pilot has nothing to say about it. Which is why I prefer ProATC over PF3 when it comes to SIDs (and STARs) because it isn't a pilot's job to figure out a SID (and STAR) himself and to tell ATC what he wants them to tell him.

This might be another interesting question. I would imagine that in the Captain - Dispatch - Relationship it is the Captain who has the final word on the flightplan which he gets from dispatch.

Maybe Ray can also forward this question?

52 minutes ago, J van E said:

Sigh... seems you can't get it all in one package yet... 😶

We just have to make some compromises when simming. It is just a question of how much we can overlook without losing the immersion. That, everyone has to decide for himself. I don't have any problems with choosing SID / STAR myself - I do that also with my aircraft, my route, the time I fly etc.... also very unrealistic 😉. At last we are all sitting in front of a desktop, pretending we are inside a cockpit... 😉

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by RALF9636

[nam1394 10]

25 minutes ago, J van E said:

So the company may ask for a SID they want but in the end ATC decides which one it will be. One thing is for sure though: the pilot has nothing to say about it. Which is why I prefer ProATC over PF3 when it comes to SIDs (and STARs) because it isn't a pilot's job to figure out a SID (and STAR) himself and to tell ATC what he wants them to tell him. 😉 Easy as it may be to figure out a proper procedure, it just isn't realistic to do it yourself. Then again... it also isn't realistic to stick to the plan from A to Z: in that regard PF3's randomizer is a nice feature.

Sigh... seems you can't get it all in one package yet... 😶

PFPX or Simbrief are the dispatchers in our simworld who represent the companies.

Edited October 18, 2018 by nam1394

[Ray Proudfoot 8,954]

8 minutes ago, RALF9636 said:

This might be another interesting question. I would imagine that in the Captain - Dispatch - Relationship it is the Captain who has the final word on the flightplan which he gets from dispatch.

Maybe Ray can also forward this question?

 

I’ll ask but I’m pretty sure I know what the answer will be. What type of change were you imagining the captain might ask for? Other end of the runway? 😁

I can’t see him requesting a different SID since that would be at odds with his company. Same with ATC.

 

[Christopher Low 5,353]

I choose my own waypoints and SIDs/STARs for my (rather short) flights. Anyone else that gets in the way had better get out of the way, because I refuse to change my flightplan for anyone!!

Edited October 18, 2018 by Christopher Low

[Lorby_SI 2,038]

14 minutes ago, RALF9636 said:

I would imagine that in the Captain - Dispatch - Relationship it is the Captain who has the final word on the flightplan which he gets from dispatch

In the real world, yours is but one of hundreds of aircraft that dispatch and ATC have to handle at the same time. They won't see kindly to any "requests" made by a captain who thinks that he knows better. There just isn't the time or the space. Your slot only works for the planned departure and route. Change that, you lose the slot, and may have to wait half a day for the next one.

Take a look at the London - Paris - Amsterdam - Frankfurt area on FlightRadar24 at any given time. This madness can only work if everyone does exactly what has been planned. I don't think that the Captain has any possible way of compiling a flight plan himself. Too many other aircraft in the air, that he could do that without a computer that knows every other flight plan of every other aircraft. That is what dispatch does. They don't just plan your flight - the plan it so it fits in with everyone else at the same time.

IMHO the pilot has no control over where he is flying, when he is flying or how he is flying, when he sleeps, when he eats or when he wakes up. He is supposed to adhere to what he is told. Consume as little fuel as possible, don't cause trouble and keep the passengers reasonably happy (as long as it is cheap). In this day and age, even senior pilots are just numbers on a spreadsheet in the airline's finance and controlling department.

The most realistic sim procedure seems to be to just take the dispatch package that you get from PFPX, SimBrief etc. and do exactly what it says. Concentrate on the operation of the aircraft itself. Don't make mistakes, and don't burn too much fuel. 

I would imagine that even the dynamic assignment of SIDs as discussed above is a specialty of certain airports. At locations like Munich where the winds are mostly steady, blowing from the West most of the time, and where weather doesn't change rapidly, assigning "unplanned" SIDs isn't really necessary - unless there is too much traffic of course. 

Best regards

[RALF9636 1,955]

16 minutes ago, Lorby_SI said:

In the real world, yours is but one of hundreds of aircraft that dispatch and ATC have to handle at the same time. They won't see kindly to any "requests" made by a captain who thinks that he knows better. There just isn't the time or the space. Your slot only works for the planned departure and route. Change that, you lose the slot, and may have to wait half a day for the next one.

Take a look at the London - Paris - Amsterdam - Frankfurt area on FlightRadar24 at any given time. This madness can only work if everyone does exactly what has been planned. I don't think that the Captain has any possible way of compiling a flight plan himself. Too many other aircraft in the air, that he could do that without a computer that knows every other flight plan of every other aircraft. That is what dispatch does. They don't just plan your flight - the plan it so it fits in with everyone else at the same time.

IMHO the pilot has no control over where he is flying, when he is flying or how he is flying, when he sleeps, when he eats or when he wakes up. He is supposed to adhere to what he is told. Consume as little fuel as possible, don't cause trouble and keep the passengers reasonably happy (as long as it is cheap). In this day and age, even senior pilots are just numbers on a spreadsheet in the airline's finance and controlling department.

The most realistic sim procedure seems to be to just take the dispatch package that you get from PFPX, SimBrief etc. and do exactly what it says. Concentrate on the operation of the aircraft itself. Don't make mistakes, and don't burn too much fuel. 

I would imagine that even the dynamic assignment of SIDs as discussed above is a specialty of certain airports. At locations like Munich where the winds are mostly steady, blowing from the West most of the time, and where weather doesn't change rapidly, assigning "unplanned" SIDs isn't really necessary - unless there is too much traffic of course. 

Best regards

Maybe we should uninstall our 737s, A320s etc. and fly a Super Constellation instead. So we can still simulate being some kind of hero instead of a number on a spreadsheet... 🙂

 

[jon b 2,047]

Hi all,

I may or may not be Ray's secret contact in the real world aviation industry 😉 

Things operate a little differently in the USA to the UK with regard dispatch. In the US dispatchers are licenced and trained to a high standard and as such have more of say over the operation, however I'm sure , in fact positive that the aircraft captain would still have ultimate authority.

With smaller business jet outfits or private IFR flights the routing including the SID would be planned and filed by the pilot/s

The whole point of a SID or STAR is that it's standardised so the  departure controller for example knows as soon as he/she see's you pop up on his screen after getting airbourne where you are going to turn and what hight you will be levelling off without having to even talk to you. The top altitude for a SID  may be 1,000ft below the lowest altitude from the airports STAR so separation is automatically applied.

There would be no real need as captain to be pestering to use a different SID just for the sake of it, however there may be a time where you may not be able to meet the minimum climb gradients of a SID or be unable to fly an RNAV SID  in which case an alternative will be provided by ATC if you let them know. I doubt anyone in the office would be too bothered about which SID you actually end up flying.

At large airports such as JFK you can never be quite sure which SID you're going to get until the clearance is actually issued and even then it can be re issued with a different departure as you taxi out,.It's chaos there on stormy nights with the ATIS warning " SWAP in effect expect re-routes " (SWAP- severe weather avoidance program)

Jon

 

[Bobsk8 12,698]

2 hours ago, J van E said:

So the company may ask for a SID they want but in the end ATC decides which one it will be. One thing is for sure though: the pilot has nothing to say about it. Which is why I prefer ProATC over PF3 when it comes to SIDs (and STARs) because it isn't a pilot's job to figure out a SID (and STAR) himself and to tell ATC what he wants them to tell him. 😉 Easy as it may be to figure out a proper procedure, it just isn't realistic to do it yourself. Then again... it also isn't realistic to stick to the plan from A to Z: in that regard PF3's randomizer is a nice feature.

Sigh... seems you can't get it all in one package yet... 😶

My last post on the subject. I flew many flights with PATC for about two years. When it stopped working properly in P3D V 3.4, I switched to PF3. What I had to do was brush up on my chart dearing abilities, which I didn't have to do with PATC, because PATC frankly makes reading charts not necessary because departures and arrivals are spoon fed to the pilot. When I flew with PATC, I became totally inept at reading charts, and when I tried Pilotedge for awhile, I quickly found out that I was clueless as far as reading charts and understanding what the SIDs and Stars were telling me to do. When I moved to PF3, no more training wheels, I had to knuckle down and learn all the material I had neglected for years. Took me a couple of weeks, and now I can look at a flight plan, figure out a proper star and Sid in a matter of minutes. I am a much better pilot now then I was with PATC telling me every move to make.