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Shomron

Current thoughts on ATC programs

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1 minute ago, Shomron said:

I meant to ask how does the program know which ones to assign to you? If it is done by the randomizer than I would think it is generated unrelated to the weather conditions.

The Randomizer only tells you if you are going to have a sid /star  or vectors. It is up to you to find appropriate sids/ stars. I use Simbrief for flight plans which 95% of the time will tell you sids and stars that will work. I also use Avilasoft EFB which will tell you all sids and stars and you can pick the ones that make most sense. 


 

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2 hours ago, Shomron said:

I meant to ask how does the program know which ones to assign to you?

I have the same question. This quote seems to imply PF3 does assign a SID or STAR to you:

8 hours ago, UAL4life said:

Now I realize it’s as dynamic as I need it to be and it will “assign a STAR/SID (which is just a name to PF3)” on the fly based on the winds with which ever runway is accosiated with it.

But this quote seems to say it doesn't:

1 hour ago, Bobsk8 said:

It is up to you to find appropriate sids/ stars.

So which one is it?!?

From what I understand you do have to manually put EVERY SID and STAR for EVERY runway into PF3 yourself. Which is quite a daunting task... But from what I also understand this mainly means you have to tell PF3 the NAME of every SID and STAR. You don't have to enter each and every waypoint of the SID and STAR into the program. (And I suppose this also has to be done ONCE...? Or do you have to do this for every flight?)

From what I understand furthermore PF3 leaves navigation up to you as soon as you start a SID or STAR, so if you stray away from the path or fly too high or low PF3 won't correct you or anything, unlike ProATC which does know which heading and altitude you should be flying all the time. And I suppose PF3 will only contact you again once you are at the end of the SID or STAR...? (I suppose PF3 does know about all transitions...?) You only have to tell PF3 all names of SIDs and STARs so it can pronounce them properly at the right time: that's it and that's all. PF3 knows nothing about them further. I suppose this also means that unlike ProATC PF3 won't tell you to descend during a STAR...?

The randomizer (which decides for you if you are getting a SID/STAR or vectors) sounds really nice though: that's an option I am really missing in ProATC. Sounds like it gives some sort of real life flavor to the flights.

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2 hours ago, J van E said:

I have the same question. This quote seems to imply PF3 does assign a SID or STAR to you:

But this quote seems to say it doesn't:

So which one is it?!?

From what I understand you do have to manually put EVERY SID and STAR for EVERY runway into PF3 yourself. Which is quite a daunting task... But from what I also understand this mainly means you have to tell PF3 the NAME of every SID and STAR. You don't have to enter each and every waypoint of the SID and STAR into the program. (And I suppose this also has to be done ONCE...? Or do you have to do this for every flight?)

From what I understand furthermore PF3 leaves navigation up to you as soon as you start a SID or STAR, so if you stray away from the path or fly too high or low PF3 won't correct you or anything, unlike ProATC which does know which heading and altitude you should be flying all the time. And I suppose PF3 will only contact you again once you are at the end of the SID or STAR...? (I suppose PF3 does know about all transitions...?) You only have to tell PF3 all names of SIDs and STARs so it can pronounce them properly at the right time: that's it and that's all. PF3 knows nothing about them further. I suppose this also means that unlike ProATC PF3 won't tell you to descend during a STAR...?

The randomizer (which decides for you if you are getting a SID/STAR or vectors) sounds really nice though: that's an option I am really missing in ProATC. Sounds like it gives some sort of real life flavor to the flights.

PF3 is very versatile. You can sophistically set up all kinds of things to simulate complex procedures or you can leave most of the settings quite generic with very little effort and still enjoy it.

 

PF3 gives you two options for the approach: Vectors or STAR.

If you choose Vector, at your last waypoint you will be vectored to the FAF. 

If you choose STAR, at your last waypoint (which - for a simple setup - should be that last waypoint of your route that is not runway specific) you will be cleared for the approach to a specific runway and after that PF3 will leave you alone until you contact Tower for landing (except for speed restrictions as you come closer to the airport - also that can be disabled).

PF3 calls that approach a generic name which you can define (e.g. SP for Standard Procedure). You can - but you don't have to! - define runway specific procedure names which PF3 will then use according to the runway in use. But that is all, the name PF3 uses. There is no procedural difference between having defined all specific STAR names or just using a generic name. And PF3 does not read the real name of the procedure but only spells them. So I'm fine with the generic name here and I have never defined runway specific STAR names in PF3.

So after PF3 cleared you for the approach it's up to you to choose the procedure you fly. It can be a STAR, an abbreviated STAR, a direct course to the FAF or any other route. Use your charts, apps like LittleNavMap, EFB or anything to get the appropriate STAR.

 

So what does the Randomizer do?

The main feature is that the selection of Vector or STAR is randomized, so you do not know before your flight if you will be vectored or fly a STAR.

It also randomizes the name of the Procedure that PF3 uses. For you these names can have any meaning you can think of. You can set up a preset of options for this like:

A for the full STAR

B for a shortcut to the STAR

C for a direct to the FAF

D for an approach at pilot's discretion

...

The definitions are all up to you. So you let the Randomizer decide what you do after PF3 cleared you for the approach at your last waypoint. That way you can fly the same route over and over again, and it will be different every time.

There are other settings that are randomized, for example the speed you will be slowed down to on approach.

Nevertheless also with the Randomizer you can - so far - only set the generic procedure name, not runway specific procedures.

 

The Randomizer shows its full potential if you use PF3 together with Multi Crew Experience. Randomizer can write into the MCE-scripts so you can make your FO - randomly if you choose -  call out anything you want, including real STAR names, restrictions etc.

 

 

Edited by RALF9636
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Thanks for the detailed information. But it seems a bit as if PF3 stops doing what it should do during one of phases in flight where it is needed most...? Where ProATC starts working (assigning a STAR by itself, following you, etc.) PF3 turns off the radio and goes away for a break. At least that’s how it feels to me.

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9 minutes ago, J van E said:

Thanks for the detailed information. But it seems a bit as if PF3 stops doing what it should do during one of phases in flight where it is needed most...? Where ProATC starts working (assigning a STAR by itself, following you, etc.) PF3 turns off the radio and goes away for a break. At least that’s how it feels to me.

Why is ATC needed most when you fly a STAR? The whole purpose of STARs is that ATC does not need to work you to the runway. A STAR would be pretty useless if ATC would need to vector you along the STAR. What do you expect ATC to do while you are flying the STAR?

Edited by RALF9636
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Just now, RALF9636 said:

Why is ATC needed most when you fly a STAR? The whole purpose of STARs is that ATC does not need to work you to the runway. A STAR would be pretty useless if ATC would need to vector you along the STAR.

It shouldn’t vector you but it should follow you? Does real life ATC completely forget about planes flying a STAR? If someone leaves the correct path, shouldn’t ATC do something about it? But anyway, I have stopped flying entire STARs so vectors are more of interest to me. ProATC makes it a bit hard to just being vectored. 

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1 minute ago, J van E said:

It shouldn’t vector you but it should follow you? Does real life ATC completely forget about planes flying a STAR? If someone leaves the correct path, shouldn’t ATC do something about it? But anyway, I have stopped flying entire STARs so vectors are more of interest to me. ProATC makes it a bit hard to just being vectored. 

You are right of course that real world ATC follows you while you fly the STAR and will intervene if you leave the correct path. PF3 does not do that. PF3 leaves it at your responsibility.

Of course if you want to keep strictly to a STAR and want ATC to nag you if you don't do it correctly, PF3 does not deliver that.

But the way PF3 handles it gives a lot more flexibility for you, in particular if you don't want to fly complete STARs. You can fly a part of the STAR and then take a shortcut, like it is in the real world. Of course PF3 does not give you a clearance for that shortcut but leaves that to you - what can admittedly be considered unrealistic. But you can use the Randomizer to kind of simulate such a clearance.

Everything has its advantages and disadvantages ...

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6 hours ago, J van E said:

I have the same question. This quote seems to imply PF3 does assign a SID or STAR to you:

But this quote seems to say it doesn't:

So which one is it?!?

From what I understand you do have to manually put EVERY SID and STAR for EVERY runway into PF3 yourself. Which is quite a daunting task... But from what I also understand this mainly means you have to tell PF3 the NAME of every SID and STAR. You don't have to enter each and every waypoint of the SID and STAR into the program. (And I suppose this also has to be done ONCE...? Or do you have to do this for every flight?)

From what I understand furthermore PF3 leaves navigation up to you as soon as you start a SID or STAR, so if you stray away from the path or fly too high or low PF3 won't correct you or anything, unlike ProATC which does know which heading and altitude you should be flying all the time. And I suppose PF3 will only contact you again once you are at the end of the SID or STAR...? (I suppose PF3 does know about all transitions...?) You only have to tell PF3 all names of SIDs and STARs so it can pronounce them properly at the right time: that's it and that's all. PF3 knows nothing about them further. I suppose this also means that unlike ProATC PF3 won't tell you to descend during a STAR...?

The randomizer (which decides for you if you are getting a SID/STAR or vectors) sounds really nice though: that's an option I am really missing in ProATC. Sounds like it gives some sort of real life flavor to the flights.

You are making something that is really easy sound really difficult. On a Sid, all you have to know is the active runway ( check the wind) and then look at a chart for the airport and find the Sid that connects that runway to your flight plan. If you have EFB, that can be found in about 1 minute. You don't tell PF3 the Sid you are on, just that you will be flying a Sid, because PF3 doesn't babysit your flight path while you are flying the Sid ( like in real life). The Pilot follows the Sid headings, waypoints and altitudes, from the chart. ( just like in real life) 

Now when  you get to the arrival, and if you have EFB, it is easy to find a Star if one works for the direction you are approaching the airport from. So it will list different stars that work from the east, or southeast, or south, etc.....If you used Simbrief to make your FP, simbrief will probably have already suggested a Sid or star if one is available. If you don't have EFB, just look at the Star Charts for the airport you are approaching and see if you can find a Star that connects from your flight plan to the final approach. 

Now, if you don't know how to read Sid and Star charts, then just don't tell PF3 that you want to fly a Sid or a Star, and PF3 will give you vectors, headings , and altitudes, from takeoff to landing. Frankly, if someone  can't read a chart, they probably   shouldn't  be flying sids and stars anyway.

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1 hour ago, RALF9636 said:

You are right of course that real world ATC follows you while you fly the STAR and will intervene if you leave the correct path. PF3 does not do that. PF3 leaves it at your responsibility.

Of course if you want to keep strictly to a STAR and want ATC to nag you if you don't do it correctly, PF3 does not deliver that.

But the way PF3 handles it gives a lot more flexibility for you, in particular if you don't want to fly complete STARs. You can fly a part of the STAR and then take a shortcut, like it is in the real world. Of course PF3 does not give you a clearance for that shortcut but leaves that to you - what can admittedly be considered unrealistic. But you can use the Randomizer to kind of simulate such a clearance.

Everything has its advantages and disadvantages ...

I have listened to real ATC at Atlanta, New York Airports, and Miami, where I have lived. I can't remember the last time if ever ,  I heard an ATC controller telling a pilot that he was not following a departure or approach procedure properly. I would suspect if a pilot can't fly a procedure properly, the management of his airline would not be very happy. 

Edited by Bobsk8

 

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I can read SID and STAR plus approach charts just fine and it is dead easy to find an appropriate one for the region I fly, also thanks to an extremely well done site with all possible real world charts. So no problem there. It’s just that it is ATC’s job to tell me which SID and STAR to use. I shouldn’t have to figure that out myself, easy as it may be. I want ATC to do its job. 

But as I said, I am flying less SIDs and STARs now, because they are seldom flown where I fly, so PF3 might be interesting for me because of its vectoring options, which seem to be ahead or at least easier to get done with PF3 than with ProATC. 

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24 minutes ago, J van E said:

But as I said, I am flying less SIDs and STARs now, because they are seldom flown where I fly, so PF3 might be interesting for me because of its vectoring options, which seem to be ahead or at least easier to get done with PF3 than with ProATC. 

Indeed it is very easy to set up PF3 for vectoring you.

To avoid any disappointment: Be aware that PF3 is not terrain aware. So if you are approaching an airport in mountainous terrain it can happen that you are vectored into a mountain if you blindly follow ATC. In that case you can request an approach at pilot's discretion any time if you notice that the vectoring is not safe. Also you can set a FAF-altitude which ATC will not clear you below. Nevertheless I always recommend to use the STAR option in mountainous terrain.

 

Edited by RALF9636
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Hope I haven't confused anyone but Since this thread has moved to a PF3 discussion and it would be difficult to split out the posts - I've changed the title of the thread to a more generic title.

 

Vic


 

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After a 3 or so year hiatus from simming, I went and bought P3D and an assortment of mods. I decided to run with Pro ATC X for my ATC package, having previously used RC4 years ago.

I was in love with the program for my first few flights. Last night, however, I mis-operated my Maddog X by not using fuel heat and letting ice accumulate in the inlet filters, or something. Long story short an engine quit on me and since I couldn't restart, I declared an emergency with Pro ATC X. It arbitrarily (without asking my intentions) picked a random airport for me and gave me vectors to the ILS. Realizing the field it chose didn't have a runway long enough to accommodate my Maddog, I tried to change my destination to KHOT instead, only to find that there's no option to change destinations.

I closed the program because it kept giving me a thousand vectors to an airport I couldn't even land at. So far that's my only gripe: If wx is bad or if I have a problem, why can't I choose what airport I intend to land at?

Edited by WestAir

Take-offs are optional, landings are mandatory.
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To make a small fortune in aviation you must start with a large fortune.

There's nothing less important than the runway behind you and the altitude above you.
It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground.

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2 hours ago, WestAir said:

After a 3 or so year hiatus from simming, I went and bought P3D and an assortment of mods. I decided to run with Pro ATC X for my ATC package, having previously used RC4 years ago.

I was in love with the program for my first few flights. Last night, however, I mis-operated my Maddog X by not using fuel heat and letting ice accumulate in the inlet filters, or something. Long story short an engine quit on me and since I couldn't restart, I declared an emergency with Pro ATC X. It arbitrarily (without asking my intentions) picked a random airport for me and gave me vectors to the ILS. Realizing the field it chose didn't have a runway long enough to accommodate my Maddog, I tried to change my destination to KHOT instead, only to find that there's no option to change destinations.

I closed the program because it kept giving me a thousand vectors to an airport I couldn't even land at. So far that's my only gripe: If wx is bad or if I have a problem, why can't I choose what airport I intend to land at?

ProATC will “randomly” select a alternate unless you choose one , ie edit the flight plan in the ProATC app to a better alternate

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Hello @ll,

a question/thoughts about the real world procedures. I can't shake the feeling that we may be overrating features in those ATC programs that aren't that common in the real world in the first place. 

They way I used to know commercial ATC, SIDs and STARs are not assigned "on the fly" a lot, at least not on mid range or short routes. Your flight plan is handed to you from dispatch, complete with SID and STAR from the beginning. You are only allowed to start your engines when/if the whole flight plan has been cleared through every ATC station on the way, including the destination airport. The main purpose being, that everyone is always aware of where and when you are supposed to be. 

Many airlines have their preferred approach routes too, that they will always use if they can get them. So many pilots are always flying the same routes and approaches, day in, day out, knowing them by heart (and still having to repeat them to each other every day, again and again).

When you are nearing your destination, ATC knows where to expect you, due to the STAR that you had in your flight plan that they cleared. If the weather changed, and the transition cannot be flown, they would in most cases just vector you in.

But that IMHO was how it worked years ago. So the question is to those in the know about the actual commercial operations today: how often does it actually happen that you are assigned a new STAR, different from the one on your flight plan? Or does it all work differently these days anyway?

Best regards

 

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