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Ray Proudfoot

Thrustmaster TPR Rudder Pedals - alternative to Crosswind?

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It was a pleasure to have you over for a visit Ray,and thanks again for your settings tips and checklist.

The TPR isn’t cheap, but it’s one of those (now rare) things in life that fully justifies it’s price tag with its performance and build quality. Taxiing an aircraft has now become a pleasure rather than just an unrealistic  chore required to reach the runway. I’ve tried the TPR on a variety of aircraft now from gliders to airliners and they perform faultlessly and improve the handling experience no end. While Ray was round we looked at an engine failure at V1 on a heavy jet, and the TPR allowed just the correct amount of rudder to be squeezed on and held as the engine ran down and the thrust decayed leading to a fairly stable , straight and realistic climb out.That level of control just isn’t possible when using the CH rudders I had before and would lead to a lot of lateral instability.

In short, they’re not cheap, but are well worth it, I doubt anyone would be disappointed with the TPR’s performance.

Jon

 

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787 captain.  

Previously 24 years on 747-400.Technical advisor on PMDG 747 legacy versions QOTS 1 , FS9 and Aerowinx PS1. 

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7 minutes ago, tutmeister said:

Thanks for the review and write up both of you. Are you able to compare to crosswinds?

I can't unfortunately as I've never tried them.


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v5.3HF2, Intel i9-13900K, MSI 4090 GAMING X TRIO 24G, Crucial T700 4Tb M.2 SSD, Asus ROG Maximus Z790 Hero, 32Gb Corsair Vengeance DDR5 6000Mhz RAM, Win 11 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor, Fulcrum One yoke.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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I've had a pair for a while now.  I could never go back.  Smooth, precise, and sturdy, they are wolds away from the CH I have long suffered and now permanently retired.  Especially for helis and taildraggers, you will really appreciate them.  

-Steve

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@Jon @Ray

Hello Jon, Ray
Thanks for reporting back on the testing. I wanted to come back to one aspect: could you feel any detent? In your setup: was there any spring force in the neutral position (because that would create a detent feeling). Did you try different spring tensions in the neutral position?


FlyHirundo Rudder Pedal and Yoke
Designed and manufactured in Switzerland

Email: info@flyhirundo.com
Website: under construction

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@oemlegoem, surely there would have to be some detent for the pedals to return to a neutral position. Both for rudder and brake action.

This is from the review linked below... " Making small yaw adjustments is easy, and, even though the pedals’ dead zone is configurable via Thrustmaster’s TARGET software, the default settings are quite pleasant. "

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/09/thrustmaster-tpr-is-the-king-of-mass-market-flight-sim-pedals/

The review also states Windows recognises the pedals without the need to install TM software which means for ultimate control use FSUIPC to calibrate them.


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v5.3HF2, Intel i9-13900K, MSI 4090 GAMING X TRIO 24G, Crucial T700 4Tb M.2 SSD, Asus ROG Maximus Z790 Hero, 32Gb Corsair Vengeance DDR5 6000Mhz RAM, Win 11 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor, Fulcrum One yoke.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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Hallo Ray

It seems we have a different understanding about what a detent is.
For me, a detent, such as caused by the Saitek yoke and -depending on setting- the Thrustmaster, is caused by the scissors mechanism. The force-travel relationship becomes then as follows (am trying to show this without inserting graphs):

                                         
                    force 


                         /
                       /
                      /
                      |
   -----------     o   -------------> travel
                      |
                     /
                    /
                   /

The scissors mechanism causes a sudden reversal in force required when passing the neutral position. It is caused by the hardware. Software cannot correct it. This makes it more difficult to achieve fine control around the neutral position.
A mechanism without scissors, just using springs (such as the yoko yoke) would have a force-travel line passing through the neutral point (not shown in the diagram), without detent feeling.
In the Thrustmaster, the sudden jump can be reduced by reducing the spring force in the neutral position. I wanted to find out if that would eliminate the detent feeling in the Thrustmaster. 
 

Edited by oemlegoem

FlyHirundo Rudder Pedal and Yoke
Designed and manufactured in Switzerland

Email: info@flyhirundo.com
Website: under construction

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@oemlegoem, yes, sorry. I hadn't understood the issue correctly. In the time I was trying the pedals I did use very small amounts of left and right rudder and monitored the effect. As far as I could ascertain there were no ill-effects either side of the neutral position. I wouldn't expect there to be for such an expensive unit.

@jon b, will be in a better position to advise as they're his pedals and he's a real-world pilot.


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v5.3HF2, Intel i9-13900K, MSI 4090 GAMING X TRIO 24G, Crucial T700 4Tb M.2 SSD, Asus ROG Maximus Z790 Hero, 32Gb Corsair Vengeance DDR5 6000Mhz RAM, Win 11 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor, Fulcrum One yoke.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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On 10/18/2018 at 5:08 AM, jon b said:

In short, they’re not cheap, but are well worth it, I doubt anyone would be disappointed with the TPR’s performance.

Jon

 

Just looking at the review videos it looks like that to use the brakes on the TPRs you have to lift your feet off the floor thus losing that steadiness you have with your heels on the floor when using the rudders. I would imagine then that combined breaking and rudder control say on landing might not be as precise as a slow taxi. Is this the case or can you brake with your heels on the floor?

Thanks,
gb.


YSSY. Win 10, 6700K@4.8, Corsair H115i Cooler, RTX 4070Ti, 32GB G.Skill Trident Z F4-3200, Samsung 960 EVO M.2 256GB, ASUS Maximus VIII Ranger, Corsair HX850i 850W, Thermaltake Core X31 Case, Samsung 4K 65" TV.

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7 hours ago, gboz said:

Just looking at the review videos it looks like that to use the brakes on the TPRs you have to lift your feet off the floor thus losing that steadiness you have with your heels on the floor when using the rudders. I would imagine then that combined breaking and rudder control say on landing might not be as precise as a slow taxi. Is this the case or can you brake with your heels on the floor?

Thanks,
gb.

hello gb

I had the same thoughts as you. The ideal would be where there would be minimal interaction between yaw and brake action. Idealy the position of the foot with heel on the floor determines yaw position. And foot angle brake action.

But: is there any other rudder pedal that can do this? I have not seen any. And, how is the real world? Anyone with comments on that?


FlyHirundo Rudder Pedal and Yoke
Designed and manufactured in Switzerland

Email: info@flyhirundo.com
Website: under construction

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Thinking back to when I flew in Pete Dowson’s 737 cockpit, when I needed to brake I had to move my foot further onto the pedal in order to push the top part of the pedal downwards. I wouldn’t have been able to brake with my heel on the floor.

I think the TM pedals will be the same as they’re so large. Even with my size 12 (UK) feet I would need to have them off the floor for braking but they could stay there for rudder control.


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v5.3HF2, Intel i9-13900K, MSI 4090 GAMING X TRIO 24G, Crucial T700 4Tb M.2 SSD, Asus ROG Maximus Z790 Hero, 32Gb Corsair Vengeance DDR5 6000Mhz RAM, Win 11 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor, Fulcrum One yoke.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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7 hours ago, gboz said:

Just looking at the review videos it looks like that to use the brakes on the TPRs you have to lift your feet off the floor thus losing that steadiness you have with your heels on the floor when using the rudders. I would imagine then that combined breaking and rudder control say on landing might not be as precise as a slow taxi. Is this the case or can you brake with your heels on the floor?

Thanks,
gb.

I don't have the TPR pedals but that is the case with most real aircraft - heels on the floor for rudder only, slide them up on to the pedals to brake.

This has the advantage that keeping your heels on the floor when you don't actually want to brake avoids the risk of inadvertent brake application.

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The resistance felt with the rudder travel is quite linear, there is very little resistance felt in the neutral position with the 2 springs in the least resistance position. If you use your hands to move the pedals you can just feel a small detent, but using your feet as intended you can’t realy feel a detent. Lots of little corrections just a  few degrees off centre can be fed in during the take off roll to keep the aircraft straight without  feeling any sort of detent, not the case with the more digital feeling ch rudders with their noticeable detent. I’ve been flying the A2A bonanza and P51 recently both requiring some fancy footwork on the takeoff roll to keep straight and the TPR have been great for this task.

Yes, to apply brakes you have to take your feet off the floor , but as Simon mentions this is realistic and the same in real aircraft. Small GA aircraft sometimes require a mixture of nose steering via the rudder and differential brakes to tighten up the turn.This feels tricky and quite unnatural in real aircraft , and the TPR mirrors this. Usually on larger passenger aircraft of course there is a steering tiller, but the use of this is limited to slower speeds so you do have the scenario when vacating a runway using a high speed turn off at about 50kts (which HS turn offs are designed to be used at)where you will be braking using the brake pedals and steering the nose through the rudders, as the nose wheel steering deflection is normally limited when using the rudders to 12 degrees for example. Where as the tiller allows full NWS deflection and so leaves you vulnerable to oversteering.

I would suggest due to its realism the A2A P51 would be very difficult to control using the CH rudders , however the TPR makes it  a lot more pleasant and controlled. It’s still a hard machine to get off the ground though!

Edited by jon b
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787 captain.  

Previously 24 years on 747-400.Technical advisor on PMDG 747 legacy versions QOTS 1 , FS9 and Aerowinx PS1. 

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Just to confirm re lifting your feet to apply brakes. "Heels on the floor" was the last pre take off check one of my instructors used to drum in to me once we lined up with the runway.

This was so you didn't inadvertently apply brakes during the take off role & slow the aircraft down. So yes you do need to lift your feet off the floor to apply brakes (at least in all the aircraft I flew which was a range of Cessnas, Pipers, Beech Sundowner & TB20 Trinidad).

I haven't flown for many years now however I still have a habit of applying brakes after take off & prior to selecting gear up when flying a "lighty" in the sim. 

I have a set of XWinds which I'm very happy with however a little disappointed in the stirrup motion design (so no heels on the floor check). I believe some time ago their was talk of a bolt on "F16" style pedal to be released at some stage however this is yet to eventuate.

Hence my interest in the TM's. I did like the Saitek Combat pedals I had because of their layout however the brake throw was too short & made it difficult to keep the aircraft straight when braking upon landing. XWind's are much better in this regard. 

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Cheers, Ross

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1 hour ago, Rossco said:

 

Hence my interest in the TM's. I did like the Saitek Combat pedals I had because of their layout however the brake throw was too short & made it difficult to keep the aircraft straight when braking upon landing. XWind's are much better in this regard. 

Ross , I’m sure you’d really like the TPR ,it’s practically an exact 1:1 scale set of real aircraft pedals in build and feel.


787 captain.  

Previously 24 years on 747-400.Technical advisor on PMDG 747 legacy versions QOTS 1 , FS9 and Aerowinx PS1. 

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