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AviatorMan

A2A Bonanza revisited

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A few weeks ago there was a long thread discussion on this forum about the A2A V-Bonanza, and the apparent overly strong left pull on takeoff. The thread was moved to the A2A forum, where I continued to follow the discussion. The discussion evolved to the recommended  use of a bit of right-rudder, and minimum aileron, at rotation (and at landing as well). I have now flown the A2A Bonanza many takeoffs using this technique, and it no longer seems to be a problem. So perhaps the flight model is OK after all, and it is just a bit of finessing the piloting technique? I wanted to bring this up here again, as I suspect there are more users on this forum than on the A2A forum, to get some wider feedback. Have others who were having this problem employed this technique with success?

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I also noticed this strange behaviour of the very strong left pull after immediate take off. Being a PPL pilot myself and having flown different types of GA planes (with less HP however compared to the Bonanza) I was struck by surprise and asked myself if this left pull was truly realistic. If yes, than to my opinion many take off accidents must have occured!

My work around was to make a very shalow initial climb (just as the F16's do (:-)) untill the speed reached > 95 knots and than increased the climb angle by pulling the yoke. 

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I believe most of the initial hard pulls to the left were related to how loaded down the plane was and the timing of the rotate and how aggressive the rotate was.  In using the A2A Bonanza I find if I gently pull back on the stick at about 80 kts I get a gentle lift off  and straight and level climb.  If I try to rotate sooner or pull back too hard then I get the strong left pull tendency

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Hi Folks,

Well - yeah - no Vee time - if you go easy and don't pull hard (Scott noted they are heavy on the controls) - yep - much more stable takeoff - but - as posted above - had this been a real world characteristic - to the severity experienced in the A2A model - Bonanza's would have been dropping like flies... I think the pitch is a bit too sensitive as well... I'm hoping A2A revisits the Bonanza FDE and does some tweaking at some point... The effects seem a tad over exaggerated in my humble opinion - their Skylane does similar... Try the Skylane in a 15 knot crosswind - it's still deadly - which is a plane I've flown in the RW and is known to be ultra stable - if a tad nose heavy with that big bore Continental up front... Just my two cents - take it for what it's worth...

Regards,
Scott

 

Edited by scottb613

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I find the Bonanza very stable... in take-off, climb, descent, and landing.  During cruise in choppy air it will do its famous "Dancing Dutch Roll", but that's easy to contend with (and the autopilot handles the Dance well, too).  Twice I've had it pull hard to the left after breaking ground.  Both times I had a right crosswind, an aft CG, but more importantly I added too much positive pitch at too low a speed.  As posted above, I've also started keeping the airplane at a shallow pitch angle until I attain 90-95 KIAS.  I've also added a bit of (flat) curve to my flight controller's pitch axis... slows the initial input of that axis (same thing can be done using the Control Panel (Shift 3)). 

What I find difficult about the airplane is the pitch axis of the autopilot... climbing, and especially descending using the autopilot is a roller coaster!  I've pretty much given up on that device and trim the airplane for a climb/descent angle that gives me the rate I want... much easier than chasing that autopilot.  Also, I've replaced too many flaps (4 as I recall in about 45 hrs)... and never deployed them at excessive speed.

Greg

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AviatorMan,

You did well to bring it up again here. I moved recently to P3Dv4 and got the C172 and the V35. I first flew the C172, and I had the  strong left pull on takeoff, like there was a wind gust. Of course I did tests with no wind, see level, joystick calibrated, etc.
I did not read the thread you mention but my understanding is:
- Maybe A2A modeled too good the flight model because in real life, a medium stick movement results in a small surface input. But our sim joystick is not a real stick
- On the C172, I finally realized that the strong pull to the left right after take off is kind of start of stall
- I realized that I pulled to much on the stick (while ok on other airplanes), need to be extremely smooth
- If the manual say for example rotation speed = 55 kts, it does not mean that the gear lifts off the ground at that speed, but start to pull gently at that speed

I must admit that I flew the V35 after the C172 and there was a left pull too but less than on the C172. Maybe because aware already?

Also there is a non documented feature accessed through SHIFT+3 : in the lower left corner, you can set the elevator force. If I am correct, the higher the number, the harder you have to pull for the elevator to move.


- TONY -
 

 

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Basic I know but also think of balancing left and right fuel before take-off and put a co-pilot of the same weigh as the pilot.


- TONY -
 

 

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This video may be helpful to this conversation:

And maybe this will give some insights into the stall/spin issues:

Jesse

Edited by JesC
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Jesse Cochran
"... eyes ever turned skyward"

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Many thanks Jesse and King Schools!

Right rudder rules lol

Please help me:

I did not hear/understand what the lady said in the end: we need to apply right rudder not only to keep the plane centerline while on ground but also after the plane takes off.

That is continuous right rudder. Correct?


- TONY -
 

 

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5 minutes ago, Simicro said:

Many thanks Jesse and King Schools!

Right rudder rules lol

Please help me:

I did not hear/understand what the lady said in the end: we need to apply right rudder not only to keep the plane centerline while on ground but also after the plane takes off.

That is continuous right rudder. Correct?

A c172r/s model ain't no v-tail bonanza.

On most single engines when climbing some right rudder will be needed. The higher the power setting & the higher up you pitch the nose, the more right rudder is required to keep the airplane flying straight & coordinated.

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35 minutes ago, Simicro said:

That is continuous right rudder. Correct?

She, Martha King, is talking about adding additional right rudder when lifting the nose and taking off.

It might be helpful to practice this is no wind conditions to get a better idea of the effects on the aircraft.

Jesse

Edited by JesC
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Jesse Cochran
"... eyes ever turned skyward"

P3Dv5 HF2 Professional, Windows 10 Professional, Jetline GTX, Gigabyte Aorus X299 Gaming 7 mobo, i7 7740X @ 4.9 GHz, Corsair H115i Liquid Cooling, 32Gb SDRAM @ 3200MHz, Nvidia GeForce GTX1080Ti @ 11 GB

ORBX Global + NALC, ASP3D, ASCA, ENVTEX, TrackIR, Virtual-Fly Yoko Yoke, TQ6+, Ruddo+ Rudder Pedals

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If your sim rig does not have a yoke and separate rudder pedals (as a real aircraft would), I think it might be difficult to get the correct rudder application with a joystick. When you start the takeoff roll, you are steering with the rudder pedals (which control both the nose wheel and the rudder). When the air speed is sufficient, you are using the rudder itself to keep on the centre line. When I get to the right speed on the Bonanza and rotate I increase the right rudder pedal slightly to avoid the pull to the left. If it still pulls left, I use more pedal. If it pulls right, I ease off right pedal.  As others have noted, just after lift off the aircraft is partly flying on the "air cushion" effect, so generally you nose down just a little until you gain more air speed,all the time using the rudder pedals to avoid pull to the left or right. Climbing to steep at slow speeds will amplify the left pull.

I understand that Scott of A2A, who is an experienced pilot, had the use of a V Bonanza to fly during the development of their model, so I would assume that he would be a good judge if he had this flight characteristic true to the real-world aircraft, and one would expect he made many adjustments to refine the model before it was released. A2A also refined the model further after release based upon feedback from users in the forums.

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My system specs: Intel i9-10850@3.6 - 5.2 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 10GB, 32GB  DDR4 3200MHz RAMNoctua NH-D15 Chromax Black CPU Cooler,1TB Seagate SSD, 4TB Seagate HD, Windows 10.                  Sims: P3Dv4.5 Professional and MSFS2020; Orbx Global and Vector, Orbx OpenLC Eu and NA, and most Orbx FTX regions in EU and NA. Preferred aircraft: PMDG DC-6, Manfred Jahn DC-3 and A2A Bonanza, Comanche and Cherokee

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Folks,

I own a Bonanza A36, and can confirm it requires a decent amount of right rudder to keep the plane tracking the center-line of the runway. I tend to also use aileron as necessary too.  Happy to answer any questions as they come up. 

 


Busdriver (Bill)

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14 minutes ago, busdriver said:

Folks,

I own a Bonanza A36, and can confirm it requires a decent amount of right rudder to keep the plane tracking the center-line of the runway. I tend to also use aileron as necessary too.  Happy to answer any questions as they come up. 

 

Hi Bill,

Very cool...

I can only speak for myself - but the right rudder isn’t the issue - every plane I’ve ever flown requires right rudder - the bigger the engine the more rudder needed for obvious reasons...

The part that bothers me about the FDE as well as the Skylane - they have a very strong tendency to ROLL off to the left on takeoff - which is a sensation I’ve never had in any aircraft... Alsa can you speak to the overall pitch sensitivity of the model vs real world pitch sensitivity ? Granted they are not identical models...

Thanks so much...

Regards,

Scott

 


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Very interesting, thanks all. Got it fot the additional right rudder when lifting.


- TONY -
 

 

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