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barramundilure

Correct Go Around Procedure

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It is indeed. You'd be surprised how the new generation of kids we get are so hung up on flying the buttons and not the yoke. The Automation is really focused on in both the SIM sessions and line training. They expect the kids will get the hand flying practice in on the line and leave us line Captains to teach them..... Which most don't because they don't hand fly much either having come up through the same system.

Me? I hand fly whenever I can and actively encourage guys and gals to dump the automatics and hand fly also. And I do mean all, flight director, Autothrottle, autobrake and ND too. Feel the plane. If you are hand flying you learn the feel of the trim as speed and config changes, it's perfectly possible to hand fly an approach and just know the speed is right from that feel, but it takes practice.

Anyway....don't get me started. I could rant for pages....

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Mark Harris.

Aged 54. 

P3D,  & DCS mostly. DofReality P6 platform partially customised and waiting for parts. Brunner CLS-E Yoke and Pedals. Winwing HOTAS and Cougar MFDS.

Scan 3XS Laptop i9-9900K 3.6ghz, 64GB DDR4, RTX2080.

B737NG Pilot. Ex Q400, BAe146, ATP and Flying Instructor in the dim and distant past! SEP renewed and back at the coal face flying folk on the much deserved holidays!

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8 hours ago, MarkJHarris said:

Me? I hand fly whenever I can and actively encourage guys and gals to dump the automatics and hand fly also. And I do mean all, flight director, Autothrottle, autobrake and ND too. Feel the plane. If you are hand flying you learn the feel of the trim as speed and config changes, it's perfectly possible to hand fly an approach and just know the speed is right from that feel, but it takes practice.

So your company is pretty relaxed on hand flying? I've heard a lot about SOPs that tell pilots to leave the A/P on down to a certain altitude on approach or only disconnecting the A/T at something like 100ft AGL. I've seen an Air Canada 787 takeoff from the cockpit and the captain switched on the A/P when the gear was still retracting in perfect weather and I was a bit 'shocked' as I thought that's flying an airplane nowadays?


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Interesting -- the overwhelming view from the 747 guys I know is to get the A/P in at the earliest opportunity to reduce the workload on both sides of the cockpit (though it sounds like the 737's ancient heritage strikes again in this case -- the Jumbo wouldn't do anything other than remain in THR (REF) | TO/GA | TO/GA when the A/P is engaged with the speed bug remaining in a suitable spot).

1 hour ago, threegreen said:

I've seen an Air Canada 787 takeoff from the cockpit and the captain switched on the A/P when the gear was still retracting in perfect weather and I was a bit 'shocked' as I thought that's flying an airplane nowadays?

What I would say is that it is important to remember that it depends heavily on the situation. I don't know where the flight you describe was departing from, but just because the weather is good doesn't mean to say it's necessarily sensible to be hand-flying.

Remember that in a two-man cockpit, whilst you're merrily hand-flying without a care in the world the guy next to you may be working like a one-armed paper hanger picking up all the other tasks which you might otherwise be doing if the autopilot were engaged, on top of his own job, and whilst your attention is focussed on flying the thing how effectively can you cross-check what he's up to (and vice-versa when he is twice as busy?).

Obviously in a quiet traffic environment is one thing... in complex/busy airspace with perhaps an RNAV1 SID with complex routing/lots of closely-spaced level restrictions/sensitive noise terminals if you stray from the defined noise-preferential route and ATC trying to squeeze lots of traffic in, there might be an argument for distributing the workload a bit more evenly so that you can both monitor each other/look for traffic etc more effectively.

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18 hours ago, skelsey said:

each other/look for traffic

This.  All eyes are out of the cockpit as much as possible when VMC below 10000.  One never assumes all traffic will be called out to you by ATC or the fish finder.


Dan Downs KCRP

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On 10/30/2018 at 10:39 PM, Stearmandriver said:

I think it's an option in real life, probably related to firmware version.  Our fleet had it when I started but I think it was relatively new (Spin would know)...

I *think* it's been that way since U10.7, but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure we've had LNAV armed for G/A since I've been flying the 737 - 11 years.

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Matt Cee

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21 hours ago, skelsey said:

Interesting -- the overwhelming view from the 747 guys I know is to get the A/P in at the earliest opportunity to reduce the workload on both sides of the cockpit (though it sounds like the 737's ancient heritage strikes again in this case -- the Jumbo wouldn't do anything other than remain in THR (REF) | TO/GA | TO/GA when the A/P is engaged with the speed bug remaining in a suitable spot).

What I would say is that it is important to remember that it depends heavily on the situation. I don't know where the flight you describe was departing from, but just because the weather is good doesn't mean to say it's necessarily sensible to be hand-flying.

Remember that in a two-man cockpit, whilst you're merrily hand-flying without a care in the world the guy next to you may be working like a one-armed paper hanger picking up all the other tasks which you might otherwise be doing if the autopilot were engaged, on top of his own job, and whilst your attention is focussed on flying the thing how effectively can you cross-check what he's up to (and vice-versa when he is twice as busy?).

Obviously in a quiet traffic environment is one thing... in complex/busy airspace with perhaps an RNAV1 SID with complex routing/lots of closely-spaced level restrictions/sensitive noise terminals if you stray from the defined noise-preferential route and ATC trying to squeeze lots of traffic in, there might be an argument for distributing the workload a bit more evenly so that you can both monitor each other/look for traffic etc more effectively.

I agree, didn't think of all this. The takeoff was out of runway 5 from YYZ.


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On 11/1/2018 at 8:24 PM, MarkJHarris said:

It is indeed. You'd be surprised how the new generation of kids we get are so hung up on flying the buttons and not the yoke. The Automation is really focused on in both the SIM sessions and line training.

And are we starting to see the results of this in accidents that are occurring.

The traditional route of military/GA where pilots picked up the skills of 'flying' the aircraft for me are quickly disappearing.

Two major airlines here in Australia are starting up there own flying schools. What kind of pilots are they going to train?

 I fear they are going to churn out button pushing magenta hugging individuals.

It worries me when two very experienced pilots pull back on the stick when in a stalled condition, or fly the aircraft short

into the runway on a perfectly clear day.

The following is a good article on such.

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Cockpit_Automation_-_Advantages_and_Safety_Challenges

 

Andy Baird

 

 

 

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I guess from my colleagues that I'm a bit odd in that I enjoy hand flying a lot. It really is not common, and flying a visual approach is almost unheard of. It's a bit depressing to be honest.

Once you gee them up, most of the kids actually enjoy poling it about. it improves the day out immensely. Helps them with confidence which a lot are sadly lacking once they are spewed out the far end of the training programme. 

 


Mark Harris.

Aged 54. 

P3D,  & DCS mostly. DofReality P6 platform partially customised and waiting for parts. Brunner CLS-E Yoke and Pedals. Winwing HOTAS and Cougar MFDS.

Scan 3XS Laptop i9-9900K 3.6ghz, 64GB DDR4, RTX2080.

B737NG Pilot. Ex Q400, BAe146, ATP and Flying Instructor in the dim and distant past! SEP renewed and back at the coal face flying folk on the much deserved holidays!

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13 minutes ago, MarkJHarris said:

I guess from my colleagues that I'm a bit odd in that I enjoy hand flying a lot. It really is not common, and flying a visual approach is almost unheard of. It's a bit depressing to be honest.

Once you gee them up, most of the kids actually enjoy poling it about. it improves the day out immensely. Helps them with confidence which a lot are sadly lacking once they are spewed out the far end of the training programme. 

 

When I was active, we'd make round trips between Corpus Christi and Dallas every couple of days and it was often boring.... climb to altitude and track the straight line, then descend and land.  I loved the days when we had cumulus and climb out was a gentle weaving to and fro maintaining VMC and I got a chance to fly, and occasionally it would be advantageous to get below the CB bases at 2200 and fly between the rain columns.  Real flying... it's the most fun you can have with your pants on.


Dan Downs KCRP

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Yeah, the handfly-vs-automation issue is really as much a cultural issue from airline to airline, as it is workload dependent.  The reality is, on a normal departure, there's really no workload-based reason to get the autopilot on immediately.  This is actually more true on advanced departure procedures out of airports like YYZ than it used to be; once LNAV and VNAV are engaged, there's not much else for the PM to do.  Back when all departures out of busy airspace were vectors, he'd be busy spinning altitudes and headings, selecting vertical modes etc. (and even that was usually not task saturation), but with RNAV SIDs that's not as common anymore. 

Certainly there are times to lean more heavily on the automation, and understanding when and how to do that is an important skill... But so is handflying.  The reality is, the 737 is a pretty easy plane to fly.  I'm not sure how much you can consider driving any modern airliner to be "flying", really. 

But like I say, it's kind of a cultural issue in any given company.  In the states, we run the gamut.  I remember when a friend was hired into the airbus at another airline, and clicked off the autopilot for a visual approach while telling the captain "I'll hand fly this one."  The captain immediately flipped the autopilot back on and said something to the effect of, "no you won't, because I'd have to watch you like a hawk and that's not how we do things here."

Conversely at my company on the 73, most of us handfly a good bit.  I'll usually handfly at least into the teens, and click the autopilot/autothrottles off somewhere on base.  Not always, of course... But on an average day, it's just the normal way of doing things here.  So, different strokes.  The important thing is just to be proficient at both handflying and automation use, so it's not a big deal to do either. 

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Andrew Crowley

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With PMDG 737-800 if I get a FMC message DES PATH UNACHIEVABLE in route can I do Go Around 15 and then to program FMC again?


Patricio Valdes

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3 hours ago, trisho0 said:

With PMDG 737-800 if I get a FMC message DES PATH UNACHIEVABLE in route can I do Go Around 15 and then to program FMC again?

That message only means that the vertical path cannot be solved with what it has.  Usually just slowing the aircraft and/or using speedbrakes will solve the problem. 

I don't understand  "do Go Around 15"


Dan Downs KCRP

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2 hours ago, downscc said:

I don't understand  "do Go Around 15"

Slowing using speedbrakes the same way as we start descending with flaps 1? And when the message in question becomes resolved then stop using speedbrakes?

I meant Go around with flaps at grade 15.


Patricio Valdes

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1 hour ago, trisho0 said:

Slowing using speedbrakes the same way as we start descending with flaps 1? And when the message in question becomes resolved then stop using speedbrakes?

I meant Go around with flaps at grade 15.

On descent, when you get a message saying "drag required" it wants you to apply speedbrake because otherwise the aircraft won't make the programmed vertical path. When the message disappears you can stow the speedbrake. The "des path unachievable" message means, like Dan said, that the aircraft isn't able to follow the vertical path programmed in the FMC because it can't meet altitude and/or speed restrictions along the path. Reasons for that can be that you're too high above the vertical path or the descent path is too steep and it can't meet the restrictions while keeping airspeed, the latter happens e.g. when the winds change from the forecast. You can solve that too using the speedbrake if you're not too far off the vertical path.

If you get that message somewhere on the downwind or base and you're at flaps 1 already you can still use the speedbrake for the time being to add further drag apart from the flaps to slow down or descent faster. Don't use it anywhere on final though as you have to establish a stabilized approach.

Edited by threegreen

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4 hours ago, threegreen said:

On descent, when you get a message saying "drag required" it wants you to apply speedbrake because otherwise the aircraft won't make the programmed vertical path. When the message disappears you can stow the speedbrake. The "des path unachievable" message means, like Dan said, that the aircraft isn't able to follow the vertical path programmed in the FMC because it can't meet altitude and/or speed restrictions along the path. Reasons for that can be that you're too high above the vertical path or the descent path is too steep and it can't meet the restrictions while keeping airspeed, the latter happens e.g. when the winds change from the forecast. You can solve that too using the speedbrake if you're not too far off the vertical path.

If you get that message somewhere on the downwind or base and you're at flaps 1 already you can still use the speedbrake for the time being to add further drag apart from the flaps to slow down or descent faster. Don't use it anywhere on final though as you have to establish a stabilized approach.

Thanks Niklas good advice. I had again the same FMC message Des Path Unachievable" and I armed speedbrake. The 737NG started descending and when I was around the Altitude according to FMC on the actual waypoint I disarmed Speedbrake. I didn't have "Drag Required" message. So, from FMC I saw the T/D close to 10NM I started preparing Flaps 1, speedbrake, Flaps 2, etc I was be able to land (ILS).

I will try with 747 or T7 and see if I get the same DPU message from FMC. Maybe the 737NG is more sensitive (lol).


Patricio Valdes

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