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LB777

Why is it so hard for addon devs to not alienate customers?

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In my opinion both Chaseplane and FS2Crew appear to have superb support.

I think the comments around PMDG are unfair to be honest, yes i would agree Kyle can be a little abrupt but he is also knowledgable.  I can only imagine how frustrating it is dealing with the same questions from people who just refuse to read the manual or complaining that their i3, GTX760 and 4Gb can't run P3D v4 at max settings and it's the fault of the PMDG 747.  In the defence of Kyle (something i didn't think i would ever do) Tabs was very similar when he ran the forum, i think it's dealing with certain customers.  FSL is very much the same as PMDG.  ...and no FSL are not streets ahead, that is just an absurd statement.

A2A do offer friendly support, but charging more for the Professional version of P3D leaves a bad taste in the mouth, neither PMDG or FSL do that.

As stated above, i don't think you can judge the support of an organisation from a forum, only from the official channels and in that respect PMDG are one of the very best.

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Ian R Tyldesley

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Appreciate all the replies so far, some very good comments and I definitely agree with @PATCO LCH it's important to keep in mind that a good portion of devs are on top of their game when it comes to customer support.

1 hour ago, shivers9 said:

Speaking of misconceptions....I don't do Tubeliners at all but it always seemed that everyone was in love with PMDG. I guess there is a small life leason in there somewhere.😀

Well as I mentioned in my post you can still love the products and not be a fan of their "public relations" let's call it that. I thoroughly enjoy FSLabs' Airbus but that doesn't mean I agree with how they handled the events we're all familiar with a couple of months ago. I'm also sure many people have absolutely no problem with PMDG taking your example, but the reputation they created around themselves must have come from somewhere and it does exist just judging by the replies on this thread.

1 hour ago, Bluestar said:

I would be interested in knowing how many of you folks have had trouble with PMDG when you've submitted a support ticket?

Again following what I typed above, that really doesn't say much about what we're talking about here. I doubt people will come in hundreds telling us how they were insulted in their support tickets! But similarly you can't deny that if someone were to make a poll on who gives the absolute best support, it's not crazy to think A2A would be placed higher than PMDG.

3 hours ago, Henry Street said:

PS: How many participants in this thread bought from the Halloween Flash sale? 

Haven't gotten anything either 😉

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41 minutes ago, LB777 said:

Again following what I typed above, that really doesn't say much about what we're talking about here

Maybe? 🙂

41 minutes ago, LB777 said:

I doubt people will come in hundreds telling us how they were insulted in their support tickets!

Do you have any basis for this statement? 🙂

41 minutes ago, LB777 said:

But similarly you can't deny that if someone were to make a poll on who gives the absolute best support, it's not crazy to think A2A would be placed higher than PMDG.

I do not know who has the best support, only what I know from my personal dealings with both developers. To the best of my knowledge there is no statistically valid data to support any assumptions as to who offers the best support to their customers.  🙂

Grace and Peace, 

Edited by Bluestar
typo

I Earned My Spurs in Vietnam

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1 hour ago, LB777 said:

I doubt people will come in hundreds telling us how they were insulted in their support tickets

pmdg have never insulted (me), they just haven't replied


for now, cheers

john martin

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"From the other side, we tend to be massively demanding, impatient to the extreme, a bit entitled....... and want hugely complex products to a high standard of perfection for as cheap as possible, as well as released by yesterday."

Yup......................


Jim Driscoll, MSI Raider GE76 12UHS-607 17.3" Gaming Laptop Computer - Blue Intel Core i9 12th Gen 12900HK 1.8GHz Processor; NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti 16GB GDDR6; 64GB DDR5-4800 RAM; Dual M2 2TB Solid State Drives.Driving a Sony KD-50X75, and KDL-48R470B @ 4k 3724x2094,MSFS 2020, 30 FPS on Ultra Settings.

Jorg/Asobo: “Weather is a core part of our simulator, and we will strive to make it as accurate as possible.”Also Jorg/Asobo: “We are going to limit the weather API to rain intensity only.”


 

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It all comes down to how you approach the person dealing with your issue, I tend to be on the side of here is the issue, what can we do to fix it? and wait for a resolve, over a few days if necessary sometimes. No need to escalate anything beyond that.

I've never had any issues with any developers but I will keep interactions to a minimum. Anything more wastes everyone's time. 

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Matthew Kane

 

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Hello all,

I have to say that I have long been an admirer of PMDG products and often dribble copiously over their products.  I also have to mention that the oft mentioned Kyle has, on most occasions, offered incredibly good advice to all and sundry. 

That does not, nor ever will, justify his very public persona and attitude when upset. To put it simply, I find it  upsetting whe he or anyone puts on a display of this nature and it is unacceptable at the very least.

As a result of this negative publicity, I purchased iFly products in lieu and found that whilst they have a much less visible presence on the AVSIM forum, their support on their own forum is unflagging and always supportive.

This is what I think sets the standard for me (and that is MY choice) and my product purchases reflect this. I just wonder how much money these people cost their respective companies, regardless of their expertise.

I also agree that many of these responses are vry well provoked in the first place. However, I also think that, in a face to face situation,one reacts  instintively and often incorrectly ie explosively. The same cannot be said of a written response where a response is not required instantly and respondents have time to consider their response. I have also always said or thought, that if you have a problem with an employee then his/her supervisor is mainly at fault because he/she is not addressing the problem for the benefit of the company or the person involved. If that is being addressed then the problem comes up once, or twice. Persistence is a sure sign of a companywide problem or the need to dispense with the services of the problem child.

In conclusion, I believe that not all purchasers of any products are experts and even after advice given some people will remain nonplussed. In this regard, there is really no "silly questions" and responses such as RTFM, Google is your friend and others in a similar vein are totally unwarranted, unhelpful and unacceptable (for me). That having been said, how any people (men) read a FM (the last inititial means manual) in the first place ... it is an extraordinarily uncommon thing for a "real man" to do, as, we don't read manuals as a matter of course. The same applies to street directories LOL.

Like the original poster, I am not picking on any particular person and generally hope my response reaches the ears and brainpower behind all developers who may or may not be increasingly referred to in a similar vein. I would have thought that there is sufficient competetition out in the real world for ALL developers to maximise their individual sales with good support. NO developer needs handicapping staff in their business plans and this sort of thing should not really be happening. The amazing this is that it actually does happen and all to often.

Regards to all

Tony(note signature LOL)

 

 

 

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Tony Chilcott.

 

My System. Motherboard. ASRock Taichi X570 CPU Ryzen 9 3900x (not yet overclocked). RAM 32gb Corsair Vengeance (2x16) 3200mhz. 1 x Gigabyte Aorus GTX1080ti Extreme and a 1200watt PSU.

1 x 1tb SSD 3 x 240BG SSD and 4 x 2TB HDD

OS Win 10 Pro 64bit. Simulators ... FS2004/P3Dv4.5/Xplane.DCS/Aeroflyfs2...MSFS to come for sure.

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23 minutes ago, himmelhorse said:

In conclusion, I believe that not all purchasers of any products are experts and even after advice given some people will remain nonplussed. In this regard, there is really no "silly questions" and responses such as RTFM, Google is your friend and others in a similar vein are totally unwarranted, unhelpful and unacceptable (for me). That having been said, how any people (men) read a FM (the last inititial means manual) in the first place ... it is an extraordinarily uncommon thing for a "real man" to do, as, we don't read manuals as a matter of course. The same applies to street directories LOL.

 

Tony, 

You and I see eye to eye on many things but, IMHO, reading the manual is fundamental to using ANY product, especially for power tools and software. 

In my business, we develop loads of customized documentation for our clients. And, expect them to read it. Of course, we always help when they call the support desk but when it is obvious they have not prepared, we ask them to open the documentation and go thru it with them. Some clients find this off-putting but it keeps their support costs down to do their homework.

This (and not doing the tutorial flights) I do see as a very big drain on the flightsim support forums in which I participate. Maybe because I have been on the other side of the phone/email, I have this perspective.

Great discussion here in this thread. 

Edited by Henry Street

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8 hours ago, scottb613 said:

That - and threads that contained comments critical of their company have been repeatedly deleted on the AvSim general forums - in their entirety - the very forums many of us donate to support...

I was going to post a correction, but two of my fellow mods have already done so.

Edited by n4gix
Removed my original post and substituted the above...

Fr. Bill    

AOPA Member: 07141481 AARP Member: 3209010556


     Avsim Board of Directors | Avsim Forums Moderator

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Henry,

I really do appreciate that manuals are made for a purpose mate. In reality though, how many do NOT read a manual and this is always going to be a problem for all manufacturers of all products, be they software or hardware.

Human nature (read male ego) and manualse are often not compatable LOL

Like you, I am also impressed with the content of this thread and in particular, the lack of nastiness that is being displayed and have to admit to being very pleasantly surprised, after thinking when I first started reading this thread "well, here we go" 

i also like your attitude to the problem ie "get your manual out and we will go through it." Great stuff.  I have developed a similar theme when I was teaching new staff.  I would generally sit beside them and let them do thing only correcting them when they made a mistake and at the same time, taking the opportunity to explain why they had made the mistake and giving them the opportunity to put an alternate view. I was frequently put in my place when presented with a better alternative. 

We shuld never be too old to learn that our methods may be suspect or downright incorrect and long may that be the case.

Regards

Tony

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Tony Chilcott.

 

My System. Motherboard. ASRock Taichi X570 CPU Ryzen 9 3900x (not yet overclocked). RAM 32gb Corsair Vengeance (2x16) 3200mhz. 1 x Gigabyte Aorus GTX1080ti Extreme and a 1200watt PSU.

1 x 1tb SSD 3 x 240BG SSD and 4 x 2TB HDD

OS Win 10 Pro 64bit. Simulators ... FS2004/P3Dv4.5/Xplane.DCS/Aeroflyfs2...MSFS to come for sure.

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I'd like to relay a story about the time I purchased a brand new vehicle.

I was in the privileged position of being able to buy this brand's product at a discounted fixed price, granted to me as though I was an employee of the car manufacturer.

No price negotiation, all costs set and known, just choose the vehicle, options, sign and pay.

I could buy the vehicle from any dealership in the country.

Such a different buying experience and I actually chose the dealership purely on how they treated me and the relationship I struck up.

I've now bought 3 more vehicles from them in the last 18 months, at normal retail pricing however that first impression has led to over $120,000 in sales plus all servicing and any repairs.

Back to simming. maybe some developers don't realise their product is so well loved but the public interactions that take place on internet forums are not appreciated and many, like me sit back in the silent majority thinking after reading a series of posts back and forth degrading in common courtesy (sometimes from both sides) "why was the developer’s forum support staff  even getting involved in this way"?

I often wonder why the developers online staff don’t remember that while their forum is not a democracy and we the public have to always play by their rules (and fair enough), one day taking your customers for granted and treating them rudely will eventually get them in trouble and more importantly tarnish the public persona of that company.  Reputations are very hard to rebuild once ruined.

I remember one post where the OP stated he thought this particular aircraft’s wing droop when fully fueled didn’t look like the real aircraft.  I actually thought the same but never got involved in the thread.  The OP was eventually scolded like a school child.  Then a few weeks later the owner of that development company stated in a post they took particular care and extra time to ensure in their next update of this aircraft that wind flex,etc… was better represented in the aircraft because they were never really completely satisfied with its modelling up until then….

Edited by YMMB
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I do think that dealing with customers is a skill which needs to be learned, and honed. I had a mid-life change of career to retail, and it took me a long time to learn how to treat the customer, and how to deal with issues. When I went full-time scenery development, I had a printed list on my wall with a number of rules which I promised myself I'd keep. Most of these were based directly on what I learned from my old retail boss... 

It took me half a lifetime to get comfortable with dealing with customer service, and it was pure luck that I even understood the need from the start of my business. So I'm not surprised that a lot of developers have poor customer relation skills, and I certainly wouldn't judge their products on this -- although I tend not to be burned twice:)

Not many developers have the luxury of a professional service department.

I still stick to the 'rules', answer every query in a reasonable time, offer a solution, a refund is not a solution... sometimes I want to say 'RTFM', but more likely 'have a read of section ## of the manual'. 

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I might have bought something during the Halloween sale Henry, but I already have it all.

One unnamed large vendor suspended me for two weeks for something I said in a normal post.  It might have been somewhat sarcastic, I'll never know.  On other forums I kept asking people to read post #nnn and tell me what it was I said that earned me a two week suspension.  Nobody could tell me what was offensive in that post.  That got me what I consider a lifetime ban since after over a year I have been back to the site several times and find I am still persona non grata.

You can please all of the customers some of the time, and some of the customers all of the time, but you can't please all of the customers all of the time.

Noel


The tires are worn.  The shocks are shot.  The steering is wobbly.  But the engine still runs fine.

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In my opinion the OP in the "raindrop" thread was the one who picked the fight from his second post onwards. While there may be deficiencies in the responses from support staff, there are always two sides. Customers have their role to play too - if you try and pick a fight or be "obtuse" as that poster was told, you should expect push back.

Just because you are the customer, don't expect the right to behave any way you like without recourse.


David Porrett

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15 minutes ago, toprob said:

I do think that dealing with customers is a skill which needs to be learned, and honed. I had a mid-life change of career to retail, and it took me a long time to learn how to treat the customer, and how to deal with issues. When I went full-time scenery development, I had a printed list on my wall with a number of rules which I promised myself I'd keep. Most of these were based directly on what I learned from my old retail boss... 

It took me half a lifetime to get comfortable with dealing with customer service, and it was pure luck that I even understood the need from the start of my business. So I'm not surprised that a lot of developers have poor customer relation skills, and I certainly wouldn't judge their products on this -- although I tend not to be burned twice:)

Not many developers have the luxury of a professional service department.

I still stick to the 'rules', answer every query in a reasonable time, offer a solution, a refund is not a solution... sometimes I want to say 'RTFM', but more likely 'have a read of section ## of the manual'. 

My very first real job (I do not count my three months in fast food while I was at college) was retail, right out of college.  I went into interview on a lark, I just wanted to work, a close high school friend was proud of her retail experience in our student store, I was shy, so I thought retail was a perfect way to come out of my shell.  I just loved the job so much.  We were a storewide team and in a few years I rose thru the ranks to become a floor supervisor and cashier trainer, which later gave me a foundation as an international business systems instructor.  There were difficult customers, but soon they learned to ask for me when they had problems, and for Montgomery Ward I took over the Northwest California customer complaint program, which we called the "Red Line" program.  If a customer had a complaint that could not be resolved thru normal channels it came to me and I had carte blanche to use any resource at my disposal to satisfy the customer, in any store (Napa was the HQ of the region).  I also gave credit to customers that applied and qualified to the best of my abilities, which allowed them to purchase things like cars and homes later on.  From there I became a hotel manager at two hotels and applied the same service skills I learned in retail.  If a customer or guest got out of line I would look them in the eye, or say on the phone, that they were.  I gave them a chance to stay a customer or not, their call.  Most did, a few did not, one cannot please all but one tries one's best.  I later applied those same skills as an IT business systems instructor because students are indeed customers.  I did not train all of my students which numbered over one thousand in my career, but most I did, and they became job references for me when I went into software QA and dev support for the latter third of my career, until I left in 2015.

John

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