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A messy kitchen, 9900K UK edition, 85F but chilly inside

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So what defines active exactly?  In P3D all cores will be active all the time, so LCD setting will always be used and hence a pointless “feature” for P3D.

But thanks for clarification, I’ll not waste any more time on per core setting ... test results do indeed bare this out.  So this is how Intel justify X series cost vs. K series with silly artificial gimmicks like this?

This just makes me hope AMD can turn it up a notch, they’re close now.  Of course if AMD can beat the king  they’ll adopt Intel prices just as they did many years ago.

Cheers, Rob

 

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9 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

  In P3D all cores will be active all the time, 

Cheers, Rob

 

 

Yep, so will always be at the frequency you set for all cores active. 

I dont think it was always that way. Think its just recent generation CPU's

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29 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

So what defines active exactly?  In P3D all cores will be active all the time, so LCD setting will always be used and hence a pointless “feature” for P3D.

But thanks for clarification, I’ll not waste any more time on per core setting ... test results do indeed bare this out.  So this is how Intel justify X series cost vs. K series with silly artificial gimmicks like this?

This just makes me hope AMD can turn it up a notch, they’re close now.  Of course if AMD can beat the king  they’ll adopt Intel prices just as they did many years ago.

Cheers, Rob

 

Rob....Thanks for taking us all on this little trip into LA LA land. Sorry it did not turn out better. It has been interesting and a great sanity check for those of us who for what ever reason have been waving the BS flag. AMD may be able to find some way to claim themselves the winner but I am not sure they can get much more out of today's tech but, it will be fun to watch. Thanks again for sharing the experience.

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1X 16 PCIe lane, handicapped per core settings, 5.4Ghz cap with HT, and ASUS trying to focus on "adaptive" (and/or AI that doesn't work) and power savings as the next best features ... sorry just not impressed.  My G.Skill 4400 was XMP 2.0.  Exact model not listed in QVL, but that's fairly normal since RAM manufacturers constantly changing model numbers especially for their "high" rated memory (changes almost daily so unlikely to be in a QVL).

So what's next for AMD for desktop computing?  I assume we'll not see any Intel X series CPUs until 2020?

Glad I made my case/build with quick disconnects with a purpose of easy to swap out components ... I may just swap this MB/CPU combo out for something with more PCIe lanes.

Cheers, Rob.

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19 minutes ago, shivers9 said:

Rob....Thanks for taking us all on this little trip into LA LA land. Sorry it did not turn out better.

Haha, it's my job 🙂  

I had higher expectations, but after reading reviews I dialed that back somewhat so it wasn't such a surprise at 5.4Ghz cap ... I'm just baffled at the focus being on power savings for a desktop computer ... it's feel like "we give up, but hey look at all these cool real-time adaptive/AI power savings features".  When I used to race RW, the objective was to go as fast as possible, not figure out the best way for me to conserve fuel.  I know how to conserve fuel, I have an EV for that ... the purpose for desktop computing should be about performance.

My 2 cents,

But this build was more about the fun of the process and getting everything to work the way I wanted it to work even if the end results of CPU performance was somewhat lack luster ... I'm sure with more tweaking and a few UEFI updates from ASUS and I'll be able to get 5.5Ghz all cores HT on ... but I'll not notice a 100Mhz difference in P3D.

Cheers, Rob.

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Just trying to remember what my prediction was. 5.4 wasn't it? You dont have to give the the prize I asked for though. 😀

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You’re easy to please.  I don’t think it was you, the man from the west I think?

Cheers Rob

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So more testing, Time Spy CPU test is the AVX intensive test that will skyrocket CPU temps ... still trying to figure out how to work this test.  Bumped Cache frequency up and made a few gains ... anyone tried adjusting the TDP limits - wondering if I'm hitting those limits but that shouldn't BSOD, would expect throttling?  ASUS suggest making this higher for OC (max value of 4096) ... value is in Watts.  But under Time Spy I do hit 100C when the CPU test starts even with AVX set to 4 (so from 5.4Ghz to 5Ghz under AVX).  

Cheers, Rob.

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49 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

So more testing, Time Spy CPU test is the AVX intensive test that will skyrocket CPU temps ... still trying to figure out how to work this test.  Bumped Cache frequency up and made a few gains ... anyone tried adjusting the TDP limits - wondering if I'm hitting those limits but that shouldn't BSOD, would expect throttling?  ASUS suggest making this higher for OC (max value of 4096) ... value is in Watts.  But under Time Spy I do hit 100C when the CPU test starts even with AVX set to 4 (so from 5.4Ghz to 5Ghz under AVX).  

Cheers, Rob.

Yes, mine was throttling back to as low as 4.1 before I set several parameters to max values:

  • Long Duration Package Power Limit = 4095
  • Package Power Time Window = 127
  • Short Duration Package Power Limit = 4095
  • CPU Core/Cache Current Limit = 255.75
  • CPU Current Capacity = 170%
  • DRAM Current Capacity = 130%
  • VRM Spread Spectrum = Disabled

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Hi Gregory,

Today (this afternoon) ... need to find a stable sweet spot ... which oddly seems to be 5.2Ghz 4000Mhz RAM and 4.6Ghz Cache.  Lowering the CPU frequency and increasing the Cache frequency seemed to provide the overall best performance.  There was a point of diminishing returns beyond 4.6Ghz Cache frequency ... I was able to go upto 5Ghz on Cache frequency but CPU scores stopped improving significantly after 4.6Ghz Cache frequency.

Time Spy results I settled on:

TimeSpy_5.2.thumb.jpg.683cdfacc370df31724bbbca9a3fd9e4.jpg

Tight fit in my limit SimPit space:

thumbnail_IMG_6867.thumb.jpg.07f5450e83022973d467912e6c0b59f5.jpg

We had a change in dew point here (raining) which was at 57F and I was running at 48F ... fortunately I caught the condensation before it caused any issues (thank goodness I put backing plates on my 2080Ti's).  Dew point is back down today so back to 48F setting ... but time to go get a weather unit I can stick to the front of the case that shows dew point.

Will report back my P3D results later today.

Cheers, Rob.

 

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Wow! Looking good!  Oh, and don't invite me over ....most guaranteed to spill coffee  .......on something(s).

Glad you found a happy spot with the build. And Yeah, I kinda feel bad about not mentioning anything about the dew point last week  ...but hey, it was 200+ days since our last rain ...who would'uh thunk it. 🙂

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Maybe a coffee spill will make it faster with some caffeine.

i have two ways to deal with higher dew point:

1.  Turn on 480 rad fans, this will heat up coolant temps and also cool down room temp

2.  Turn down Koolance chiller (already at close to min adjustment)

i think the larger external standalone Koolance chillers auto monitor dew point and adjust accordingly.

Given the efficiency of this Koolance chiller, I may run it thru VRM and GPU - single loop.

Weather station secured with Dew Point readings ... more rain due next week.

Cheers Rob

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17 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Given the efficiency of this Koolance chiller, I may run it thru VRM and GPU - single loop.

I did wonder why you didn’t do that from the beginning. My i9-9900k and Maximus Xi Formula are running XP11 solidly and I’m now able to run much smoother and have objects to maximum. Happy camper here.

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17 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

Maybe a coffee spill will make it faster with some caffeine.

i have two ways to deal with higher dew point:

1.  Turn on 480 rad fans, this will heat up coolant temps and also cool down room temp

2.  Turn down Koolance chiller (already at close to min adjustment)

i think the larger external standalone Koolance chillers auto monitor dew point and adjust accordingly.

Given the efficiency of this Koolance chiller, I may run it thru VRM and GPU - single loop.

Weather station secured with Dew Point readings ... more rain due next week.

Cheers Rob

Thanks for your tests, i pass on this CPU think it not give much compared to my 5.1ghz 7920x i prefer that one over my second sim pc 8700k 5.4 ghz 

anyway your system is very vey nice, keep up the good work

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On 11/24/2018 at 5:07 PM, Rob Ainscough said:

Tight fit in my limit SimPit space:

thumbnail_IMG_6867.thumb.jpg.07f5450e83022973d467912e6c0b59f5.jpg

 

Blimey!  Be cheaper to have your own cessna than all that gear 😉

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Very nice looking setup Rob. I showed that Pic to my wife and suggested that she has time in the evenings and weekends for a couple more jobs to supplement her day job and I could get a pit just like yours. Now I am going to miss a whole day of simming just to replace that bedroom door!!

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10 hours ago, westman said:

i pass on this CPU

The 9900K runs hot, too hot ... the soldered IHS was a mistake and is clearly NOT able to transfer heat well ... no idea why they went that direction ... hopefully not because of some young YouTuber's.

Disappointed with ASUS and the Z390 ... don't think I'll go this direction in the future, stick with X series quad channel, more PCEi lanes or move to AMD.  Why are manufacturers wasting resources providing LN2 specific options (dip switch, UEFI settings, etc.) for the pointless exercise of freezing that isn't sustainable except for one very exotic solution from EVGA.  LN2 community represents about 0.0001% of buying consumers (actually they probably don't even buy most of what they freeze, get it for free) ... I would prefer these manufacturers spend time on quality components/designs for the majority use case.

The ASUS AI features are primitive and in some cases very dangerous to the components ... and for what?  So they can come up with an OC that is worse than what most can do manually?

Think it's time for MB manufacturers to get back to the basics ... spend more resources on design/quality/tolerances and less on useless fluff.  I'd happily pay for something that actually works rather than voodoo AI and LN2 options ... but I don't want to pay for zero practical use case LN2 options.  Charge the 0.0001% use case LN2 folks a fortune for custom LN2 MBs and stop making the rest of us pay for it.

Anyway, fortunately my PC setup is very interchangeable and easy to swap out components ... and I can't see myself sticking with this CPU/MB for long.  Sorry to disappoint anyone following this thread.

I'll post my my P3D results later ... but so far they aren't looking much better than my 7900X and I'm having issues running SLI/NVLink at 8 X 8 rather than 16 X 16 that I could on the 7900X ... so no NVLink/SLI numbers.

And the Time Spy numbers really should have been closer to 26000 mark IMHO.

Per Ady's suggestion, I might try single loop using the Koolance to do it all (CPU, VRM, GPUs) ... I think my quick disconnects should make that an easy job to change ... but I honestly don't think that will help much as the problem isn't cooling, it's heat transfer from CPU just not being efficient.

Apologies for being so negative, but it is what it is.

Cheers, Rob.

EDIT:  On the positive side, the MB does have some very nice visuals and a boot /error status display that looks almost holographic ... it's a very pretty MB.

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1 hour ago, Charlatan said:

Blimey!  Be cheaper to have your own cessna than all that gear

I wish that were the case ... and I wish I had the time to fly at all hours of the day/night.

 

50 minutes ago, shivers9 said:

Now I am going to miss a whole day of simming just to replace that bedroom door!!

Haha ... you could always tell her the PC can be used as a portable AC unit also  🙂

Cheers, Rob.

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7 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

 Sorry to disappoint anyone following this thread.

What?!? I think most here appreciate your effort. I think we were all pulling for you and Intel and Co., but the quest was to learn and we learned.

  • Like 1

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Rob,

I just appreciate the candid opinion on it.   You always approach things very scientifically so I typically find your results reliable and presented in a way that I can relate to.  This insight will likely either have me hold onto my 6850K @4.2 or go for an 8700K/8086K and shoot for 5.0 or take things one part at a time with the video card upgrade most likely being next (presently a 1080 powering a Vive with a Vive pro on order).  Thanks for the insight.

Thanks,

 

Brett

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9 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

The 9900K runs hot, too hot ... the soldered IHS was a mistake and is clearly NOT able to transfer heat well ... no idea why they went that direction ... hopefully not because of some young YouTuber's.

 

 

The soldered IHS is not a mistake Rob. It's superior to the method they were using before, namely Dow Corning paste and silicone glue. Given the heat generated by this chip, solder was their only choice. If they had stuck with the TIM and glue method they used previously the temps would have been higher. The lowest temps would have been with the strategy used by enthusiasts... liquid metal and barely any, or no,  glue. But of course, Intel will never adopt that method. So no, I don't believe it's related to "what YouTuber's have said". 

The point is though, if they had stuck with the old method, namely Dow Corning paste and glue, temps would have been crazy, limiting stock frequency but we enthusiasts would have had an easier time delidding and achieving the best temps possible.

 

Quote

Why are manufacturers wasting resources providing LN2 specific options (dip switch, UEFI settings, etc.) for the pointless exercise of freezing that isn't sustainable except for one very exotic solution from EVGA.  LN2 community represents about 0.0001% of buying consumers (actually they probably don't even buy most of what they freeze, get it for free) ... I would prefer these manufacturers spend time on quality components/designs for the majority use case.

 

Exactly! It's bonkers. But then motherboard manufacturers often seem to make weird decisions. With the latest generation of boards, they have been messing about with Turbo again apparently. Violating Intel's Turbo Duration.

https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3389-intel-tdp-investigation-9900k-violating-turbo-duration-z390

 

Quote

The ASUS AI features are primitive and in some cases very dangerous to the components ... and for what?  So they can come up with an OC that is worse than what most can do manually?

 

Strange you should say that. Many including der8auer are impressed with it. Might be just your immature BIOS.

 

Quote

Anyway, fortunately my PC setup is very interchangeable and easy to swap out components ... and I can't see myself sticking with this CPU/MB for long.  Sorry to disappoint anyone following this thread.

 

If you intend to just scrap it... why don't you delid it? Quite a few have now with success. Some have ground down the die as well to reduce thickness, one of the issues re heat build up. 

Edited by martin-w

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I replaced my 8700k with a 9900k over the weekend and am not seeing much improvement in anything except for encoding and other multi-thread apps. I bought my cpu locally and have until middle of January to return it. On the fence at the moment. I quite like the improvements all around in apps that can take advantage of it but my 360 AIO is barely keeping it under control at 1.35v running AVX instructions. Just not sure I like the chip $600 worth though...

Edited by J0nx

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5 hours ago, martin-w said:

 

If you intend to just scrap it... why don't you delid it?

Scrap it Rob!  One mans trash is another mans treasure ,,,right? Delid the flipping garbage can and dump it ....dump it all!!!!

I'll be rifling through your garbage over the next few weeks  .....imagine finding a couple of 2080ti's, a Maximus XI Formula, 9900K (with a lil mayo on it), 4400 c18 memory  ......it would be a flipping bonanza in that garbage can! ....So, Rob, addy please. I promise only to be in the can on garbage nite and only after the lights are out. 🙂

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6 hours ago, martin-w said:

If they had stuck with the TIM and glue method they used previously the temps would have been higher.

I think you're missing the point, IHS, paste, delid, etc. are 300Mhz improvements if you're lucky?  The heat is still there, as the die process gets smaller and smaller (10nm next) it's going to be even harder and harder to transfer heat quickly and efficiently.  If one wants to remove heat quickly one needs surface area regardless of the IHS, paste, delid, etc. etc. ... moving forward the surface area is going to be smaller and smaller.  The solution to this problem needs something more than what YouTubers are "reacting" to ... the hammer and chisel method doesn't work when measurements are in nano-meters.

36 minutes ago, FunknNasty said:

it would be a flipping bonanza in that garbage can!

And I thought it was just raccoons last night :)

Cheers, Rob. 

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