UK's wierd laws for violent crime

[Guest oyvindhansen]

>Anyone at all who enters My house>Without My permission is Trespassing,and leaves any rights>whatsoever they might of had at that border.So what you want is a license to kill, in effect a death penaly for burglary or mere trespassing? Nice guy you are!-

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"So what you want is a license to kill, in effect a death penaly for burglary or mere trespassing? Nice guy you are!"Having been victim of a burglary last year, let me answer that. If someone enters your house and you and/or your loved ones are inside, what would you do? 90 pct. of the home invasions in Phoenix last year ended up in the shooting of at least one of the occupants, although we had six killed the other day in Yuma--details are sketchy. I was lucky--I and my wife and child were out when we were broken into. But no doubt about it, I'm not going to assume someone is breaking into my home with the intent of "mere trespassing". It doesn't take much for them to elevate trespassing into murder--especially with the "leave no witnesses" philosophy the illegal alien smugglers are using here in the States looking for places to hide their human cargo. I believe you need to be a crime victim--or see the look in your child's eyes when their own room--their little world--is violated--before you become critical of someone in those shoes. My daughter still can't sleep through the night, and she didn't even see the burglar. She just saw the end result. -John

[Guest oyvindhansen]

>"So what you want is a license to kill, in effect a death>penaly for burglary or mere trespassing? Nice guy you are!">>Having been victim of a burglary last year, let me answer>that. If someone enters your house and you and/or your loved>ones are inside, what would you do? 90 pct. of the home>invasions in Phoenix last year ended up in the shooting of at>least one of the occupants, although we had six killed the>other day in Yuma--details are sketchy.> >>-JohnSad numbers indeed, but the solution isn't that homeowners should use heavy handed measures. You are already doing that and it results in 90% shootings. Of course the burglars will carry guns and when they know there's a risk of meeting trigger-happy inhabitants who can shoot them at will and walk away with it. And many criminals are also more ruthless and probably more adept at handling weapons than the average homeowner. So are the US-style laws that the original poster calls for really all that effective? -

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"You are already doing that and it results in 90% shootings."Wrong. Most of the home invasion killings in Phoenix and elsewhere in the states are of unarmed homeowners. As I said, the mindset of the burglars is "leave no witnesses". They aren't carrying guns because they are worried about their poor worthless lives--and that's what they are in my opinion. They carry guns because they don't want to spend any time in prison. I really think you are way out of line with some of your assumptions here. And by the way, I have never owned a gun, but I wouldn't want to be the other guy in a hand to hand fight--I took my share of bruises being a "runt" growing up until I learned how to defend myself rather well. The problem is, there's an old adage--"don't bring a knife to a gun fight". That's why more homeowners are arming themselves here--they are getting fed up about hearing about unarmed citizens getting murdered, execution style.This isn't new, btw. 30 years ago, when I was in my teens, some local punks in my small hometown walked into a liquor store. Seeing the owners and employees were unarmed, they lined them up in the walk-in freezer and killed them, execution style. They got caught because they bragged about the incident. I even met some of the punks--they would look like you or I.Honestly, I don't think US Style laws deter crimes. Get caught here, and you get a nice cell with a TV, Boombox, even the Internet in some cases. I think we need to lock 'em in cages and treat them like the animals they are. If you can't live with society, you forfeit your rights, in my opinion, if you are proven guilty. In fact, I'd rather not have the death penalty if I could be assured that the perp would spend a lifetime in a cell with no windows, no entertainment--nothing to look forward to. But that's "cruel and unusual"--never mind the cruelty they inflict on those around them.-John

[Guest ThrottleUp]

-----------------------------------------------I believe you need to be a crime victim--or see the look in your child's eyes when their own room--their little world--is violated--before you become critical of someone in those shoes.-----------------------------------------------Extremely well said. I could not agree more.

[Guest oyvindhansen]

1) I really doubt harsher laws will solve any crime problems in Britain or elsewhere in Europe. It will probably only make crime more brutal, "leave no witnesses" as you say.2) The prospect of getting locked up in a cage will probably also increase the motivation to get rid of every single witness.-

[Guest ThrottleUp]

[John_Cillis 2,406]

[Guest oyvindhansen]

>Everyone needs an advocate, eh?John, yes I believe so, that is what separates us from the animals. All I can say is, whatever you are doing in the US, it isn't working. There seem to be little connection between policing and crime rates. You can be angry about it, condemn the bad guys and call them animals and lock them up in windowless cages (just make shure they never get out on the streets again after that punishment), or beat them up, something you say you are good at, but will it solve the problem? No, and that is what the discussion is really about: What measures are effective.Nevin, Singapore may seem fine until one day you arrive there and discover some that drug smugglers that have used your suitcase in a clever smuggling scheme. Suddenly you are facing death penalty for a crime you did not commit, and the bad guys get away. Nice! And crime happens even in Singapore.I can hardly express how glad I am to not live in such a police state. I have never had any business with the police, but if I should someday be falsely accused, or even commit a minor offence, at least I can be sure that in my I won't be whipped in public.Crime is currently getting tougher and more organized in Europe, and there are also more cases of crime commited by mentally unstable individuals. But the problems really lie with society, not the justice system. To believe that harsher laws can solve the problem is wishful thinking.-

[Guest Fortress]

This makes interesting reading... You're obviously not alone in feeling frustration:http://coppersblog.blogspot.com/Cheers,Paulhttp://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/conc_capt_ba.jpgConcorde Training Captainwww.BAVirtual.co.uk

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Again

[Guest Divergent Phugoid]

I get the impression that some people think solving crime is easy if you have tough laws. The laws in the US are tough and burglers risk death. Problem is crime in US cities is seemingly out of control when compared to the UK.The fact of the matter is, the UK has very low crime. In part because it has very low unemployment and in part because violence is not a cultural objective. The US hosts a violent society in many parts, the average US citizen is raised on a diet of guns, militia and generally a hurt me and I hurt twice as bad mentality. That must have an effect on the psyche.A recent survey in the UK suggested that although the news papers report crime sprees, the reality that vast huge majority of violent crime is related to thumping somebody to steal their iPod and domestic crime. There were 81 firearms related incidents in the whole of the UK last year, compared with 15,000 in the US. In real terms of firearms that makes the US 15 time more violent. In terms of total violent crime there were about 8 million incidents in the US and 250,000 (11,800 incidents termed as serious, i.e. somebody needed medical treatment) in the UK, the US is therefore about 6 times more violent.Just one more point. If a country allows gun ownership and allows people to kill burglers then what do you think the burglers will do? Will they stop burglering? Oh no, now they come with an Uzi. Maybe I'm a bit dim, but to me that encourages criminals and puts families at a much much greater level of risk. What is more important: The family silver or life?

[Guest oyvindhansen]

>Again

[Guest ThrottleUp]

I agree - of course no country in the world is 100% crime free. By citing the Singapore example I was getting at something else - deterrence. Fear of the law.Approach any yob in the UK and ask them if they are intimidated by law-enforcement and they will fall to the ground laughing their heads off.As a teenager in Singapore on a Friday night, the temptation to run up to a parked BMW and bash its windows in is accompanied by another thought - if you get caught you are going down...hard. And that *deters*. Again...Singapore is NOT crime-free but their laws sure make you think twice.Anything and everything has a flipside. Yes there is a danger of a mistaken-sentence. That too is not a 100% preventable either. But the deterrence factor I feel *outweighs* that risk.As a bad guy here however you *know* you can beat the h_ll out of that person walking through the park knowing full well that even if you *are* caught all that you get is a circus court-case and 50 hours "community service". "You beat him with a baseball bat? Hmmm...right...spend 100 hours building a wall and painting a couple of houses"Last of all I feel strongly that prisons are no longer prisons. As a fellow Avsimmer pointed out: they are like hotels. A room, toilet, TV, 3 meals a day, gymn & internet. What an **insult** to victims, their families and society as a whole. Prisons *should* be like cages. They should never be allowed out - ever (for as long as their sentence runs). They should be kept in semi-darkness and fed through a slit in the door.But no. Instead the skinny criminals walk in.....and leave then on their release - well fed, with a well-established gang contact base & ripped....ready to cause more mayhem.

[Guest sb55mv]

Divergent Phugoid,please do-not-compare the crime figures in the UK to the USA, there is a massive population difference in these figures. and this thread was started about the UK