Issue with Engine (1-4) Severe Damage - EICAS indication

[Swapnil Kapadia 0]

Well i was cruising and doing a normal flight that's when i decided to try 'Engine 1 Severe Damage'. I armed the failure to happen after 30 second and waited for it.

I expected to get an EICAS warning message (ENG FAIL) or any sort of warning indication which didn't happen. All i could notice was Cockpit shake followed by Engine no.1 spooling down and start windmilling.

As Kyle suggested in some older post that for a Severe Engine damage the core should get locked and not have any rotation. It doesn't seem to agree here. 

The only time i could notice "ENG FAIL" message was when i tried resetting the failure which caused the message to appear for few seconds before the Engine spool up back to normal.

Can some one confirm the same? Or throw some light on how this warnings work for 747 as i remember for NGX and 777,the same failure (Severe engine damage) shows EICAS message, triggers an aural warning and also causes the engine core to get locked (0% N1)

Applies to both -400 and -8 models.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Swapnil Kapadia

[scandinavian13 5,192]

2 hours ago, Swapnil Kapadia said:

As Kyle suggested in some older post that for a Severe Engine damage the core should get locked and not have any rotation. It doesn't seem to agree here.

IIRC, that was for the 777. I doubt that it would be different, but something else seems to be at play here.

[Swapnil Kapadia 0]

Quote

IIRC, that was for the 777. I doubt that it would be different, but something else seems to be at play here.

So you mean this is a sort of bug?

Edited December 31, 2018 by Swapnil Kapadia

[scandinavian13 5,192]

24 minutes ago, Swapnil Kapadia said:

So you mean this is a sort of bug?

No. I mean that you were referring to a post that I made about a different product.

It is my expectation that they should behave the same, but I would need to confirm. Something sounds odd here, but I won't call something a bug until it's verified to be one. Writing something off as a bug prematurely is irresponsible, and won't help anyone solve an issue.

[Swapnil Kapadia 0]

16 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

No. I mean that you were referring to a post that I made about a different product.

It is my expectation that they should behave the same, but I would need to confirm. Something sounds odd here, but I won't call something a bug until it's verified to be one. Writing something off as a bug prematurely is irresponsible, and won't help anyone solve an issue.

Alright. I will be waiting for an acknowledgment. 

[LRBS 943]

Can you try again and take notes as to what exactly you see on primary, secondary displays and any eicas messages, please? 

Also, see the QRH ENG 1,2,3,4 FAIL and get back to us. 

Thank you.

[downscc 1,327]

I'm no mechanic but in a twin spool engine if the core (N2) locked up why would that lock up N1?  Seems to me the fan would windmill and probably vibrate excessively due to all kinds of warped air flows.

[LRBS 943]

I just did a few tests and unfortunately even I selected engine severe damage all the indications point to a engine fail only.

Did you have similar indications as you see on this picture?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cn2ykmc9zdjly0n/ENG SEV.jpg?dl=0

Problem noted, thank you.

[Bob Marton 39]

the QRH for severe engine damage does not include an EICAS message unless you have a fire on the 744

[Jetlinker 13]

Severe damage is a rather broad scenario that could be the result of a number of things. No N1 and/or high vibrations are usually what you would use to identify a severe damage situation versus just a flameout. It’s not guaranteed that the engine will fail until you shut it down, and it’s not guaranteed that the N1 fan would not continue to spin either. It just depends on the specific event and what caused it. EICAS messages will also vary depending on the event. In other words, it’s a nonspecific failure... so it’s not always going to look the same. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Jetlinker

[Swapnil Kapadia 0]

3 hours ago, killthespam said:

I just did a few tests and unfortunately even I selected engine severe damage all the indications point to a engine fail only.

Did you have similar indications as you see on this picture?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cn2ykmc9zdjly0n/ENG SEV.jpg?dl=0

Problem noted, thank you.

Yes, I have similar indication on my upper and lower EICAS display. No sign of any aural warning or EICAS message apart from N1 and N2 windmilling. Also no Non-Normal checklist are triggered (for -8 model). I have to manually select ENG FAIL checklist. Tried re-starting the engine which didn't work.

 

2 hours ago, Bob Marton said:

the QRH for severe engine damage does not include an EICAS message unless you have a fire on the 744

My doubt is why there isn't any sort of warning indications like EICAS message or Aural tone when that particular failure occurs?  The engine just spools down and aircraft keeps flying like nothing has happened.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Swapnil Kapadia

[downscc 1,327]

20 minutes ago, Swapnil Kapadia said:

why there isn't any sort of warning indications like EICAS message or Aural tone?  The engine just spools down and aircraft keeps flying like nothing has happened

Like nothing has happened in the simulator, but in real world you would immediately be aware of the asymmetrical thrust in the seat of your pants.  As far as EICAS message... what should it say?  It might be any number of things.  Engine out is a memory item, every multi engine pilot knows exactly what to do to fly the airplane and assess the situation.  I've had one that I didn't expect and my first response was automatic without thinking thanks to good training.  All the other engine failures I had announced themselves well in advanced to allow a planned shutdown and time to plan.

[Jetlinker 13]

If the engine failed there is an ENG 1-4 FAIL EICAS message, but I’m not sure how long it takes to display that. It may not happen immediately. 

[Swapnil Kapadia 0]

2 minutes ago, Jetlinker said:

If the engine failed there is an ENG 1-4 FAIL EICAS message, but I’m not sure how long it takes to display that. It may not happen immediately. 

Well i tried flying the aircraft for 20 minutes after the failure had occurred. Still no indications. You may try the same scenario and report

[LRBS 943]

Swapnil,

I logged both problems (400 and -8) to be fixed. Time frame of having the issue fixed, I don't know, but it will be addressed.

Regarding EICAS message there is NO MESSAGE  for engine severe damage, its incorporated in FIRE ENG 1,2,3,4.

As a sequence of events (as Jetlinker mentioned) when engine severe damage occurs you will hear some sort of noise associated with airframe vibrations, no message yet at that stage. Next (within 3 seconds) you will get ENG 1,2,3,4 FAIL message which is a Caution associated with a beeper, from there looking at primary, secondary displays (N1, EGT, N2, OIL P, T, Q and VIB) you will asses what actually you have. If you slow (within 10 sec)  with the checklist you will be "awarded" with FIRE ENG 1,2,3,4.

Regarding memory items, most of the airlines don't have them anymore, especially when the electronic checklist is available and everything pops up on any screen of your choice. Even on steam gauges, they use the printed (laminated) QRH.