Am I too conservative?

[TripSeven 3]

2 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

that you must declare an emergency, regardless of situation. That was the topic in question, and not the differences between VFR and IFR.

I agree with you Kyle, and you have my respect. I only commented based on the last part of his comment, which was...

3 hours ago, downscc said:

but they do not require that there be any fuel remaining when you land.

Now before anyone says anything, i have a great deal of respect for you downscc, I just thought this was a fun conversation, and as you can plainly see i don't comment much, I simply saw nothing in this comment that mentioned calling an emergency. I apologize if i stepped on anyone's toes. Have a Great day guys.

[ckyliu 1,749]

4 hours ago, downscc said:

Please note forum rules ask that we sign our full names here.

This is absolutely false, at least in the FAA jurisdiction.  The FARs require specific reserves depending on fuel policy but they do not require that there be any fuel remaining when you land.

Thank you forum police, you will note my full name is in my signature where it has been for the last 5+ years and 1000+ posts. Do you need to see the rest of my papers?

I wasn't making a statement on legalities FAA or otherwise, it's just how I do my fuel but to my knowledge it's SOP for most European airlines to declare emergency if you "dip" into final reserve fuel. I know the USA love ignoring ICAO and the rest of the world though. Forget the FARs, as a passenger I would be worried to learn of any carrier who regularly uses the final reserve in diversion situations, it really is the last chance saloon.

Edited January 2, 2019 by ckyliu

[paulyg123 135]

I just pick a random number, and if I run out of fuel in mid flight- I hit Pause, and add fuel.  Pauly is a bad pilot.

[Captain Kevin 586]

2 hours ago, ckyliu said:

Thank you forum police, you will note my full name is in my signature where it has been for the last 5+ years and 1000+ posts. Do you need to see the rest of my papers?

Think I saw somewhere that it's not possible to view signatures on mobile.

1 hour ago, paulyg123 said:

I just pick a random number, and if I run out of fuel in mid flight- I hit Pause, and add fuel.  Pauly is a bad pilot.

Hopefully you don't do this flying online.

[DavidP 1,410]

2 hours ago, ckyliu said:

but to my knowledge it's SOP for most European airlines to declare emergency if you "dip" into final reserve fuel

This has just been mandated in Australia in the last couple of months. Our regulator has in fact, made it a criminal offence as well.

[tbarker1989 1]

2 hours ago, paulyg123 said:

I just pick a random number, and if I run out of fuel in mid flight- I hit Pause, and add fuel.  Pauly is a bad pilot.

Sounds like to me that Pauly is a real G. Hahahaha

[Mace 1,907]

5 minutes ago, tbarker1989 said:

Sounds like to me that Pauly is a real G. Hahahaha

I would say that if Pauly wants to add some fuel, he can add some fuel.

If you know what I'm sayin....

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

6 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

True...but I will split the hair further and note that there is not a single reg in the book that prescribes that you must declare an emergency, regardless of situation. That was the topic in question, and not the differences between VFR and IFR. Given the nature of our aircraft, they're all going IFR anyway.

It's not in the regs (as Kyle rightly answered), it's in the airline specific policy documents and may differ from carrier to carrier.

Best wishes!

 

[paulyg123 135]

word not allowed Tbarker and Mace, I don't get your references about me.  I think I need to use the Google to find out what you are trying to say!  No fuel for you.

[VHOJT 172]

In addition, most fuel policies (EASA, CASA, FAA Domestic, ICAO) permit a plan to be filed without an alternate, with various restrictions as to when you need an alternate and when you don't.  In fact I think FAA Flag is the only major set of rules that specifically requires an alternate.

In Australia, for example, flights are not routinely planned with an alternate unless weather is below certain minima in relation the airport, crosswind limits, airport is isolated etc.  This applies to international flights as well, with certain variations for some countries.  Holding fuel for WX/published ATC delays is required, however.  For example, if you're destination was forecasting TEMPO thunderstorms, you would be required to carry either an alternate, or 60 minutes holding fuel, but not both.

A lot of other regulators allow alternates not to be planned under certain conditions, however, from what I can see, most airlines do anyway.

Cheers,
Rudy

 

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by VHOJT

[Paul_Smith 92]

20 hours ago, killairbus said:

I tend to file my flight plans with enough fuel to reach my alternate that's above my reserves. 

Am I too conservative with this? Is it ok to divert and land with some of my reserve fuel used?

-Angelo Busato 

To answer the original question, Yes it is OK to use your reserve if you need to and No, you are not being too conservative. 

Being able to land at your alternate without having to use your reserve is better then landing at your alternate with most of your reserve gone, but you must admit that both are still better then not being able to land at all.

If you are flying a familiar route to a destination that rarely has problems and has lots of available alternates then you can reduce your reserve requirements to the minimums required by the relevant rules, but the reverse is also true. A long haul into somewhere unfamiliar with a poor reputation at a bad time of year and few alternates might encourage you to carry far more then the minimum required reserves. Try hauling freight from Perth (YPPH) to Reunion (FMEE) during cyclone season with the nearest alternate in Mauritius (FIMP) and you will consider pushing your reserves to max take-off weight!

[skelsey 765]

14 hours ago, ckyliu said:

to my knowledge it's SOP for most European airlines to declare emergency if you "dip" into final reserve fuel.

Correct - it's the law over here.

EU-OPS 1.375 (b) is the relevant legislation, and I'd quote it directly but I'm on my phone and it won't format properly!

However, the requirement is that normally you should land at your planned destination with not less than the 30 minute final reserve plus alternate fuel on board, unless you have "committed" to your destination ("the commander must take into account the traffic and the operational conditions prevailing at the destination aerodrome, at the destination alternate aerodrome and at any other adequate aerodrome, in deciding whether to proceed to the destination aerodrome or to divert so as to perform a safe landing with not less than final reserve fuel")

After a diversion the expectation is that you will have at least 30 mins final reserve at touchdown. Certainly any landing anywhere with <30 min reserve would trigger an investigation.

Re: 3% contingency that someone mentioned - yes but this is only permissible in certain circumstances (you have to have a suitable enroute alternate available within a certain radius of a point along the route).

In short: in the "reserves" box of the FMC I would enter reserve (30 mins) plus alternate. This will alert you if you are likely to arrive with less that this and will therefore have to make the decision noted above.

EXTRA fuel taken on top of the minimum legal requirements is just that - extra fuel as required by the commander - but has nothing to do with the legal definition of reserves.

None of the above applicable to VFR!

[BlueStar 323]

4 hours ago, skelsey said:

in the "reserves" box of the FMC I would enter reserve (30 mins) plus alternate.

Hi Simon, 

In my world the fuel in the FMC box will vary between pilots, it's just a reminder, not a requirement.  My personal preference is to put the reserves as flight planned in operations, i.e. 10% + hold (30 min) + alternate.  Minimum on departure will be 25,000 lbs. (aircraft specific) but that rarely comes into play.  One thing to remember is it takes a gallon of fuel to carry 6 extra gallons on fuel, so there is a price to pay for carrying more fuel than needed.  Since it is not unusual to be limited by MGLW, every unnecessary pound of fuel carried is a pound of freight that is left on the ramp. It's all about the money.  🤣

Grace and Peace, 

[killairbus 3]

And here I thought reserve fuel was simply FAR + Alt...

well thanks for all the answers everybody I appreciate the time taken to answer this!

This post was spurred by an obersvation on two flight plans I acquired for a United flight. On KORD to VHHH, the flight plan showed if we diverted we would've made ZGGG with fuel well above FAR+ALT. But on the inbound leg we would've diverted to the filed alternate just under the reserves. 

-Angelo Busato

[Nyxx 6,993]

On 1/2/2019 at 9:24 PM, ckyliu said:

Thank you forum police, you will note my full name is in my signature where it has been for the last 5+ years and 1000+ posts. Do you need to see the rest of my papers?

I wasn't making a statement on legalities FAA or otherwise, it's just how I do my fuel but to my knowledge it's SOP for most European airlines to declare emergency if you "dip" into final reserve fuel. I know the USA love ignoring ICAO and the rest of the world though. Forget the FARs, as a passenger I would be worried to learn of any carrier who regularly uses the final reserve in diversion situations, it really is the last chance saloon.

Wow, not only have you had you name in your sig for as long as I have known you, but your also told your wrong. 

Loved Simons reply.

Note how fast you get slapped for nothing but no apologie.

Have to remember there’s a world outside the USA 🙂

I use PFPX and when in Euro use EURO ops and add 30 mins.

Works well.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Nyxx