Orbit/Pattern Procedure

[LeifApex 1]

I really appreciate all the elaborative answers.

36 minutes ago, jmwill1228 said:

No clue about the orbit but as far as maintaining 180 kts you will often here that with something like, “UAL180 cleared ILS 22L approach, maintain 189 kts until DOOIN or simple 5 dme. Rarely will you not hear the later part on final approach but if you don’t get clarification or as the PIC set the aircraft up for a safe landing 

 

4 hours ago, iwebber said:

I thought an orbit (in this case) means to fly a circle, usually where you are but sometimes they might say "next time over Ockham perform one right hand orbit and then leave heading 340 degrees". Either way, when you get to the requested point in space, fly in a circle. In my understanding, to fly a circuit around the airfield is just that, a circuit, an orbit is like the orbit of a satellite, round (ish).

I've never flown the 737 so I can't comment about that specifically but there are a few ways to do this in general. Off the top of my head...

1 - Drop the autopilot and honk on some (type/weather specific) bank and hold it on until you're facing the same way again. Sounds like a great idea (and in the sim it really wouldn't hurt for practise) and to cries of "pilots are over reliant on the AP and can't fly for toffee!" it's great ("I'll whip out the stick and finish her off by hand!" as we used to say on the Airbus) but with fare paying, real life people behind you and assuming you've been flying for 12 hours through the night beforehand (longhaul) or you're on sector 3 of 4 after a 3am wake up call (shorthaul) at night in IMC with CB's around in busy airspace while descending and changing speed, it does expose the flight to quite a bit more unnecessary risk, especially if it's done unannounced and unbriefed to your colleague. There's an awful lot that could go very wrong very quickly and frankly, pilots are there to operate the flight safely and not to prove how great they are (or otherwise) at flying!

2 - Hit Heading Select and wind it round in the direction you want to go. In some types if you go more than 180 degrees to your current heading it will try and turn the other way so you'll have to have a few goes at adjusting the heading to get round. In other types, you won't, and can just spin it round the whole way, much easier.

3 - Enter a hold with a leg length (or time) of 0. This is a bit heads down and sometimes a bit fiddly to do but if you are already in the hold then changing the leg length of that hold to 0 (which it will do the next time over the fix) will have the correct effect and is pretty straightforward. In my experience, despite 0 being in leg length/time it may well roll the wings level for a second or so before putting it back on so you still fly a sort of hold shape in the sky but it's normally good enough for ATC (I've often done it this way as most orbits I fly are over the holding fix at LHR where they're just trying to get the 2.5nm spacing right, and I've ususally been there a good 5 or 10 minutes already).

As a member of the crew you are free to decide the best way to accomplish this orbit depending on your circumstances. I would guess that 2 is the most common with 3 being effective in certain circumstances while 1 would be used very rarely but is a perfectly acceptable way of achieving it.

As everyone else has said, if you're given a speed restriction on the approach, it normally comes with a point at which you can resume own speed. Yesterday (into LAX), we were given 170 to JETSA (about 10 miles from the runway). It's highly unlikely they won't give you that point and if they don't, ask them. In the US (as Kyle has already mentioned), if you have a speed restriction and you're then given an approach clearance then that speed restriction is lifted unless given again.

LHR usually gives 160 to 4 and this is usally the fastest I like to be at this point (unless we have a stonking headwind), I can normally recover from that but much more and you're into very careful energy management and need to be thinking about the very real possibility of a go around. The A380 gets either 160 or 170 to 5 (I'm not sure, I don't fly it). As previously stated, LGW has adopted the 160 to 4 procedure as well now.

This can be quite an issue for pilots, approach speed restrictions are there for spacing and hence safety but if you don't allow enough time/space to slow down you won't make your approach stability criteria and have to go around. I try to include in the brief the sort of restriction we're prepared to accept so in the heat of battle we don't take something that commits us to a go around early on.

JFK are famous for that and on receipt of an approach speed restriction we can't do (or aren't prepared to accept), just tell them, along with what you can do and I've always found them quite helpful. In the US you need to be very careful as many of their ILS DMEs don't read 0 at the threshold, sometimes thery are as high as 2nm at the threshold so your waypoint that says 5.5D on the chart could actually be only 3.5 from the threshold which is usually just over 1000ft above the airfield which is pretty much our approach stability point (it's actually when it first says "1000" on the rad alt so depending on the terrain, it could be earlier - see LGW 08R).

Hope this helps,

Ian Webber

 

Is there a Way for me to have the DME’s Shown on the FMC map, Or would i just have to look at my charts and guess where e.g 4DME is located on the approach path in the sim?

Regards,

[downscc 1,327]

12 minutes ago, LeifApex said:

Is there a Way for me to have the DME’s Shown on the FMC map, Or would i just have to look at my charts and guess where e.g 4DME is located on the approach path in the sim

If the approach has a DME, as in a LOC/DME, then the DME information is indicated on the PFD upper left corner along side approach identification.  I'm not sure what you mean by FMC map.... maybe you are referring to the ND?  One may also set a FIX in the CDU and place a 4 nm circle around the fix.  Finally, on a 3 deg approach you will be about 1300 ft above the runway so there is that clue available.

[rondon9898 84]

10 hours ago, Trevor Hannant said:

As Chris says, you will most certainly hear this in certain parts - as Chris states, Heathrow regularly give speed restrictions in the Radar Manoeuvring Area (RMA).  Generally, heading in there you'll be given a speed of 220 knots, then on turn towards a base leg, you'll be asked to slow to 180 knots with a further reduction on turning to establish on the ILS of 160 knots until 4DME.

While it's not used at other UK airports as a rule, depending on traffic levels it does get used (I've listened to it at others including Edinburgh and Inverness).

 

Sorry to go on a slight tangent, Trevor, but Inverness? I am surprised they’d need speed restrictions - it’s hardly the London TMA in terms of traffic volume up there.

 

[Trevor Hannant 16]

13 minutes ago, rondon9898 said:

Sorry to go on a slight tangent, Trevor, but Inverness? I am surprised they’d need speed restrictions - it’s hardly the London TMA in terms of traffic volume up there.

 

You'd think not but I did hear it one day when I was along - just the once though! 🤣

[Dave_YVR 972]

 Orbit is a VFR instruction, not used in any IFR instruction, and there wasn't any orbit in that video.

[BlueStar 323]

6 hours ago, downscc said:

One may also set a FIX in the CDU and place a 4 nm circle around the fix.

Dan,

I draw a three mile arc around the FAF to remind me to have gear, flaps and slats in the final landing configuration.  This is also the point where I must be stabilized on the GS/LOC or on profile for an RNAV approach.    

Back in the days of 707s ATC would give a speed restriction until the "marker" and switch us to tower.  Now the "marker" has a name.  The initial call to the tower would be the speed restriction from the final controller.  I liked the marker better because it was usually a LOM and the ADF would always point to it, the light would blink and the needle swing.  Those were got days to be a pilot with almost all approaches hand flown.  Yea, I know I'm old. 🤣

Grace and Peace, 

[Olympic260 415]

3 hours ago, Dave_YVR said:

 Orbit is a VFR instruction, not used in any IFR instruction, and there wasn't any orbit in that video.

Have you seen that Video all the way? Not the trailer which show part of the departure but the fill video.  They were asked to do a 360 ie orbit when departed to separate with traffic

[LeifApex 1]

11 hours ago, downscc said:

If the approach has a DME, as in a LOC/DME, then the DME information is indicated on the PFD upper left corner along side approach identification.  I'm not sure what you mean by FMC map.... maybe you are referring to the ND?  One may also set a FIX in the CDU and place a 4 nm circle around the fix.  Finally, on a 3 deg approach you will be about 1300 ft above the runway so there is that clue available.

I set up a quick approach, and tried to place fixes for the KAS DME on the fix page by entering the radial and distance. I believe that my ND just received the fixes from the CDU and displayed the circular distance fixes from the original point and not necessarily the DME for the runway/airport. Did i get this wrong, or is there any other way to get the DME points to show, either as big circular fixes or as the smaller usual fix points? (I was referring to the ND in my previous post).

As seen in the pictures linked below, the DME information did not show - what might be the cause of this? The airport does have a LOC/DME available. (Don't worry about other stuff in these pictures, it was a quick approach to test if the DME info would show).

https://gyazo.com/b29ecd1fbe41f894262f2ab68d6e210a

https://gyazo.com/a428e6af0c4a2f2f27a8485a326e700b

 

[simbio 56]

4 hours ago, LeifApex said:

I set up a quick approach, and tried to place fixes for the KAS DME on the fix page by entering the radial and distance. I believe that my ND just received the fixes from the CDU and displayed the circular distance fixes from the original point and not necessarily the DME for the runway/airport. Did i get this wrong, or is there any other way to get the DME points to show, either as big circular fixes or as the smaller usual fix points? (I was referring to the ND in my previous post).

As seen in the pictures linked below, the DME information did not show - what might be the cause of this? The airport does have a LOC/DME available. (Don't worry about other stuff in these pictures, it was a quick approach to test if the DME info would show).

https://gyazo.com/b29ecd1fbe41f894262f2ab68d6e210a

https://gyazo.com/a428e6af0c4a2f2f27a8485a326e700b

 

Look, 04R is used for takeoff this explains the lacks of DME info check always charts, normally runway 04L got DME reading for landing same for the opposite runway.

 

Edited February 9, 2019 by simbio

[LeifApex 1]

2 hours ago, simbio said:

Look, 04R is used for takeoff this explains the lacks of DME info check always charts, normally runway 04L got DME reading for landing same for the opposite runway.

 

Don’t know how that slipped past me. Well, i made it work now - thanks to everyone for the support 🙂

regards,

[Dave_YVR 972]

On 2/9/2019 at 12:24 AM, Olympic260 said:

Have you seen that Video all the way? Not the trailer which show part of the departure but the fill video.  They were asked to do a 360 ie orbit when departed to separate with traffic

 No sorry, I wasn't aware that it wasn't a full version. Still, instructing and IFR aircraft to ORBIT is incredibly abnormal, I also wouldn't use the ATC  heard during the climb out in that video as any kind of positive example of professional ATC.

[Ephedrin 418]

An orbit seems so unlogical to me... a heavy A340 doesn‘t want to fly circles.. it want‘s to gain speed and altitude with as little bank as possible.. completely off my understanding of a sense making IFR procedure... but well, I‘ve never been a certified IFR pilot, lol... 

we used to do a „Vollkreis“ (full circle or a 360) on approach into our uncontrolled aerodrome when we came in too close behind other traffic for spacing, obviously. But never would I get the idea to do that when I carry 80 tons of fuel or whatever amount in an already kind of underpowered airplane. Rather I‘d expect a vector/heading or a delayed takeoff clearance. What will the following traffic do? Run into me? Overtake me? Do two orbits? Weird.

[downscc 1,327]

18 hours ago, Ephedrin said:

But never would I get the idea to do that when I carry 80 tons of fuel or whatever amount in an already kind of underpowered airplane. Rather I‘d expect a vector/heading or a delayed takeoff clearance. What will the following traffic do? Run into me? Overtake me? Do two orbits? Weird.

Why the concern with weight unless you are landing over the limit?  The aircraft is designed to be flown even in circles safely as long as the speeds are within safe range for the configuration and maneuvering is done smoothly without abrupt changes.  No answer for the following traffic...depends.  In VMC conditions, I've had ATC ask me to make a right 270 while on base instead of the 90 left turn to final to give them time to take care of something on the runway.  Anybody behind me would have been on downwind and simply had the downwind extended.  It's not common but there's no high drama to it either.

[Ephedrin 418]

1 minute ago, downscc said:

Why the concern with weight

I don‘t know much about the A340 but I‘ve read that the -300 version which is operated by Swiss is not the most powerful airplane.. For that range like in the video the airplane is probably very heavy. Even while it‘s save a bank reduces the climb rate and that leads to a long time in low altitudes... that burns a LOT of fuel. 

[Olympic260 415]

8 minutes ago, Ephedrin said:

I don‘t know much about the A340 but I‘ve read that the -300 version which is operated by Swiss is not the most powerful airplane.. For that range like in the video the airplane is probably very heavy. Even while it‘s save a bank reduces the climb rate and that leads to a long time in low altitudes... that burns a LOT of fuel. 

The pilots mentioned that they "throw" X amount of fuel out of the window due to that maneuver. They had to look closely at the speed as well as there was some nasty wind.

 

"

800 kph (500 mph) holding pattern

Shortly after take-off from rainy Shanghai, Chinese air control orders the crew to fly a so-called orbit, a full circle, to ensure the proper distance to adjacent aircraft. A very rare procedure that consumes approximately another ton of fuel.

"

Edited February 11, 2019 by Olympic260