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mbscjohnp

Inquiry re: Aerosoft CRJ700-900-X Direct Install into P3Dv4

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I recently installed Aerosoft CRJ700-900-X and noted the installer refusing to install into a folder outside of P3Dv4, as recommended by both Aerosoft and P3D and I had no choice but to allow installation into the P3Dv4 Ecosystem folder.

In the Aerosoft Forum, I inquired if there existed a method of overriding this installer to install the program into a folder/drive outside of P3Dv4 and commented that such was the recommended procedure. 

As a terse response, the developer Herr Hans Hartmann, implied that I suggested that he was "incompetent," (apparently for not updating his installer to accommodate P3Dv4 installation suggestions), to include his additional statement that P3D's suggested method was "unnecessary," failed to answer my inquiry, and summarily closed the post.  I am now leery of getting anymore "Warnings," like from Herr Kok of Aerosoft, for posting my inquiry in the Aerosoft Forum. This program is advertised for P3D compatibility, even though created prior to the current P3D, but from the comment of the developer, he apparently does not feel an update to the installer is required, as "unnecessary."  (Note:  my posts and the responses are on the Aerosoft Forum).

So, very simply, with no updated installer, I would like to "lift" the current installation from its location in P3Dv4 Ecosystem and place it with the other Aerosoft A318-319-320-321 installations on Drive J of my system with an "xml" locater placed into the Documents folder with the others and am hereby inquiring of Forum contributors, P3Dv4 staff, or moderators, if this would be possible.

I just am not certain if that such "lifting" would work, but unless I obtain a definitive suggestion in this forum, of which I am a member, not anticipating such from the developer, or Aerosoft, I may just simply try that and see if it works.

All that can happen is that it does not work and I have to reinstall it back into P3Dv4 until a new installer is created that complies with the current P3Dv4 installation suggestion to keep the P3Dv4 installation "pure", or having to reinstall P3Dv4.  After all, I purchased this program and this is still my computer and I do desire to comply with the suggestions provided by a developer such as Lockheed Martin.

Edited by mbscjohnp
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You could try moving the aircraft from the installed folder of  \Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4\SimObjects to your desired location then point to the new location using the Lorby Addon Organizer which uses the LM .xml preferred method. I'm not sure if this will allow access to the other default installation folders under Documents which holds Flightplans, panel state and cfg files or any windows registry entries. There must be a reason why AS chose to use the old method for the CRJ (which most developers still use).

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Hans, the developer of the software, who, (I would think), knows the internals of the program better than anyone said it can’t be done. I doubt that anyone here is going to be able to advise you how to do it if the developer himself cannot.

As was pointed out on the Aerosoft forum, the bulk of the CRJ was written before the new add-on.xml method was a “thing”.

What’s more, the main CRJ codebase has (until very recently) targeted multiple platforms, including FSX, FSX-SE and pre-V4 versions of P3D - all of which required add-on aircraft to exist under /simobjects/airplanes within the main simulator folder. I would assume that the same core codebase is used for all platforms, with the particular target sim being chosen by setting options in the model and DLL compilers.

Re-writing the code to eliminate that requirement solely for P3D v4 may not be a simple task by any means.

It’s a different matter when a new add-on targets V4 exclusively from the very beginning, which (I think) is the case with the new Aerosoft Airbuses.

There is no question that using the add-on.xml method is LM’s strongly-recommended “best practice”, but even PMDG (for the moment) still requires their aircraft to be installed within the main sim folder. That may very well change at some point, but for the moment, even their very latest release for P3D version 4 (the 747-8), still installs the old way.

The Lorby Scenery Organizer can be used to create custom add-on.xml files for existing aircraft and scenery. You are welcome to try that method, but if, as I suspect, the internals of the add-on expect it to be located under /simobjects/airplanes, it probably won’t work.

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Mr. Barrett:  OK, I get it.  Thanks for the information and reply, which is what I expected in the Aerosoft forum.  Let's get this straight though.  The sole reply I received from Herr Hartmann was that he felt I inferred that he was "incompetent" or some similar remark.  I stated my inquiry, included the "best practice" statement and anticipated more than what I received, other than his reference to the "best practice" being "unnecessary," which surprised me.   He, at no time, answered my inquiry.   I am sorry if my post irritated his German efficiency or pride, and possibly causing his inference that I must be an inferior American to his expertise.  John P. Parkinson

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2 hours ago, mbscjohnp said:

Mr. Barrett:  OK, I get it.  Thanks for the information and reply, which is what I expected in the Aerosoft forum.  Let's get this straight though.  The sole reply I received from Herr Hartmann was that he felt I inferred that he was "incompetent" or some similar remark.  I stated my inquiry, included the "best practice" statement and anticipated more than what I received, other than his reference to the "best practice" being "unnecessary," which surprised me.   He, at no time, answered my inquiry.   I am sorry if my post irritated his German efficiency or pride, and possibly causing his inference that I must be an inferior American to his expertise.  John P. Parkinson

Well, you said, “The developer's reply is, at the least misinformed and particularly not the recommended process” which comes across as a rather rude and impolite way to open a request for help, and one which could easily be taken as an accusation of incompetence.

That was in your first post on the topic, before anyone from Aerosoft had even responded yet. I believe you were referencing a previous post from many months before.

With an opening salvo like that, I can understand why Hans may not have been particularly inclined to devote time and attention to helping you.

When they closed that topic after it was clear you didn’t agree with their rationale, you immediately opened another to continue the argument, and when they closed that post as well, you moved over here to Avsim to continue trashing them. Saying that you “irritated his German efficiency and pride” is again, quite rude IMO - especially made here, on a completely different web site, where the man isn’t available to respond.

I don’t work for Aerosoft and do not have inside information on the inner workings of their programs, but I was a volunteer tester of the CRJ during the pre-release phase and afterwards, and have been an informal technical consultant on the aircraft systems as I have a lot of maintenance experience on the aircraft. I’ve never met Hans Hartmann in person, but have come to know him well through email correspondence, and have always found him to be unfailingly helpful and willing to go the extra mile to squash bugs in the program that I and other testers uncovered.

Hans and Mathijs both made it clear that they are well aware that add-on.xml is the recommended way install software for P3DV4, and Aerosoft’s newer products do use that method,

But in the case of the CRJ, adopting that method would probably mean re- working all the internals of the software. Though the CRJ has only been on the market for about a year and a half, it was in development for many years prior to that.

I’m pretty sure it’s not a simple matter of re-writing the installer to point at different file locations. It probably has everything to do with the fact that the software was written to target multiple flight sim platforms simulateneously, and much of the core code predates P3D V4.

I’ve done some (non-flight sim) development work myself, and know that when targeting multiple platforms with compile-time options, it is often necessary to adhere to the standards required by the lowest common denominator - which in this case would mean FSX, and the use of /Simobjects/Airplanes and /Ecosystem folders within the base simulator structure.

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Mr. Barrett:  Thank you so much for your input and it is appreciated.  Herr Kok emailed me with a relevant and informative reply to my original inquiry, which is exactly what I would have expected from Herr Hartmann, who, from his comment, apparently is still of the opinion that installing outside of P3Dv4 is "unnecessary".  Any reference of mine which was unfortunate should not have entered into my post and neither of his into his response and my sincere apology is offered to all.  We are going to attempt the "lifting" to see if it works, if not, we will reinstall.

Edited by mbscjohnp

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John,

You have a far different take on the referenced conversation in the Aerosoft forums, and I am of the same opinion as Jim is.  I understand you're frustrated that the product doesn't allow you to do things they way you want them, but Jim nailed the reasons why.  A re-write of the aircraft specifically for P3Dv4 would be very costly and therefore is not justifiable unless it was to be a new product that we'd all have to pay for again, and nobody wants that either.

Personally, I believe you are behaving badly in this matter, and I certainly understand it's born out of frustration of not being able to do things your way. You are likely also missing that Lockheed Martin formerly advised developers to use the EcoSystem folder, and later changed this advice. I wouldn't be surprised to see the use of the Documents folder change sometime in the future as well.

I seriously doubt moving the files will work for you, but you seem to get more enjoyment out of tinkering with flight sim than actually flying, and if so there is certainly nothing wrong with that, but doing so is entirely up to and on you, not the developer.  Bottom line is that the product works as designed.

People treating developers badly and then trashing them has to stop.  Some people come off as if they believe they can talk to and treat developers any way they wish, but should a developer object the reply is all too often "I'm the customer, I can talk to and treat you any way I want and you have to not only take it, you have to kiss me afterwards because I bought your product" just has to stop in our community. 

Had your intent been to simply get help with doing things your way then you could have simply asked your question here.  Instead, you bashed Aerosoft, Mathijs (who is a personal friend of mine and someone who has done more for the flight sim community than anyone else I've known in our community for over 36 years... and I know most the developers on the P3D side) and Hans (the developer) who has been providing excellent addons for our community for over 20 years. They are involved but innocent parties in this matter as they answered your questions both timely and accurately. You didn't get the answer you wanted, and you came her and flamed them pure and simple.  Well, I believe anyone who reads the referenced conversation would feel the same way about it that Jim and I do.  

Look, none of us are perfect, especially me. But realizing I'm not perfect, and that nothing is  more misunderstood than the written word... there is reason to at least look at this again and come to a different conclusion should one be so inclined.

We are a niche community, and the last thing we need to do is wrongly and badly treat those who invest and risk hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep pushing our very small community further.  Without people who make those investments, we'd still have FS2004 type addons.

So the message... it's fine to have and ask questions, but these personal type attacks simply have to stop - they hurt us all in this very small community of ours.

The relatively new comers don't know many of us old timers who started with the community just over 36 years ago. Mathijs at Aerosoft (who has donated thousands of dollars a year to our community) is someone who deserves a massive amount of respect from all of us, and knowing first hand what he and Aerosoft have done for our community, I just couldn't sit back and listen to them being trashed.  I don't always agree with Mathijs, but he's a good and honorable man who cares more about our Community than people will ever know.

I leave offering my very best to you my friend, and I sincerely hope things work out for you the way you want them to.

 

 

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Doesn't PMDG install to the default folder? Nobody bashes them! I have P3D installs blasted all over my drives. I've not seen any detriment to installing in the default folder, even when updating the sim.

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Okay, I do not have any Aerosoft aircraft, as such, but all my numerous Aerosoft sceneries install in Aerosoft's own folder within P3Dv4. Have had no issues so far.

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31 minutes ago, Adrian123 said:

Doesn't PMDG install to the default folder? Nobody bashes them! I have P3D installs blasted all over my drives. I've not seen any detriment to installing in the default folder, even when updating the sim.

Ditto here.

I have the Aerosoft CRJ installed in the default location, and have  never had any issues as a result...

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