[02MAR19] Humpty Was Pushed: PMDG Has Left the Building

[netshadoe 144]

On ‎3‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 10:30 AM, Drumcode said:

I had my identity stolen... twice and I will NOT sign my full name anywhere on the internet ever again. You have no idea what it took to get everything straight, about 2.5 years to get my life back to normal. 

At least your name isn't John Smith!!  lol!  :)

[Jim Young 2,356]

On 3/2/2019 at 5:26 AM, Ephedrin said:

You do 🙂 PMDG has been responsible for most traffic on avsim, people came here mostly because of the PMDG forum. Without PMDG the usage of this forum will very likely drop significantly and hence the „income“. 

I beg to differ with your offensive comments.  P3D Forums were the most active and have been for a long, long time.  They might have been the most active when a product was released but that was very temporary.  I personally answered many questions posed by PMDG customers through the AVSIM mail system.  Many members thought PMDG was under AVSIM.  I would simply send them to their trouble ticket system or advise them to sign into AVSIM and ask one of our members.  Sometimes, if I knew the answer, I answered it myself.  I might remind you the PMDG forums were not the official support forums for their products (this is clearly stated in the description for the PMDG forums).  They relied solely on the trouble-ticket system.  Occasionally a PMDG moderator would provide an answer to a question but mostly that was done by users here at AVSIM or via their trouble-ticket system.  This is one of the reasons why Tom placed a blurb in the Terms of Service for those individuals who were banned or suspended from AVSIM because of their conduct:

Your Access to Commercial Support Forums: Your access to ALL forums hosted by AVSIM is subject to AVSIM's Terms of Use. Violation of these terms will result in suspension or banning from all forums, including those of commercial vendors whose forums are located here. If you violate our Terms of Service and suffer the consequences, you have not been cut off from support. The vendors whose forums are found here provide support ticket systems directly. Using "I have been denied support" as an argument for not being banned will not undo your banning or suspension.

AVSIM hosted the PMDG Forums for over 20 years for free.  As far as I know, they never even donated to our donation system (or at least I have no record of it).  I do know the owner helped Tom with the AVSIM Fancons but so did many other developers.  AVSIM survives based on donations from our members and advertising from the Flight Simulation community.  I read somewhere last year that with PMDG leaving, this would destroy AVSIM financially.  Not going to happen and Tom's dream of having the largest and "Simming's Premier Resource" in the world will continue to survive.  We continue to make AVSIM better for our membership and guests and are currently in the process of converting our 20 year old Library to the latest technology to make access and browsing for our membership much easier. 

There is so much misinformation going around about AVSIM and I believe from comments made by "authorities" like you.  Please get the facts straight before you go around telling others what is going on here at AVSIM. 

[sloppysmusic 194]

https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-forum/general-discussion-news-and-announcements/4506-my-opinion-about-recent-decision-not-to-develop-new-products-for-microsoft-flight-simulator-x?p=4906#post4906

Waiting for the above to be moderated. Toxic atmosphere over there for FSX users. Non acceptance of our choices or even us ourselves. Makes me appreciate AVSIM even more for the diversity. It's a shame though all the bonhomerie and comradeship seems to be from the users of one sim, whereas the other seem to prefer the idea of some simmers and their sim being rounded up and forced onto trains...

Thanks Jim for providing leadership in a destabilizing environment. 

[scandinavian13 5,192]

27 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

Waiting for the above to be moderated.

No need for hyperbole. I'm not at all sure why you're assuming any one of the mods would come in heavy handed on it.

...and that's coming from me.

RSR ended up responding after I was actually in our company group chat praising the guy for offering up a fact-backed stance, in a reasoned tone...at the age of 13. I was extremely impressed, as was most of the team. Why would we shut down a reasoned, respectful conversation...?

26 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

Toxic atmosphere over there for FSX users.

I'd ask you to elaborate here, as this is incredibly misleading.

An announcement that we are ending 32 bit support (that's FSX, yes, but also FSX:SE and older versions of P3D) is not akin to it being toxic for FSX users. Tech companies not releasing video players that play my vintage BetaMax copy of Top Gun isn't toxic either - it's technological progress, and I have a neat piece of history.

31 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

Makes me appreciate AVSIM even more for the diversity. It's a shame though all the bonhomerie and comradeship seems to be from the users of one sim, whereas the other seem to prefer the idea of some simmers and their sim being rounded up and forced onto trains...

Complains about "toxicity" by posting something toxic in indirect ad hom. Interesting angle...

Also: +1 for the vague reference to concepts covered in Godwin's Law.

 

 

Any citations to back your claims up, or are we just shooting from the hip, hoping that people there aren't paying attention over here...?

[rsrandazzo 6,353]

1 hour ago, Jim Young said:

There is so much misinformation going around about AVSIM and I believe from comments made by "authorities" like you.  Please get the facts straight before you go around telling others what is going on here at AVSIM. 

There is almost nothing in the world in which you will find agreement between me and Jim, but his statement that I have quoted here is one of them.

There are only two people in the world who have any idea what lead to PMDG's decision to move to our own forum system after 20+ years with AVSim- and we haven't been in the habit of discussing it with you guys because it really isn't anyone's business but ours.  That shouldn't give anyone license to fabricate drama where it needn't be.

When Tom discovered that he was dying, I spent a lot of time on the phone with him trying to sort out what should happen with AVSim.  Tom was adamant that the site should continue and that certain individuals to whom AVSim owed it's success should be given a seat at the table.  Jim was one of those guys- and he figured prominently in the conversations. 

Tom asked me repeatedly to buy AVSim in order to ensure it would survive.  He voiced his concern that "an equally strong, equally obstinate, equally opinionated" personality was needed to run it. (yes, his words..[censored synonym for Fatherless Child])  I declined, because I felt that it was improper for PMDG to run a site that **should** be an equal arbiter in the world of simming, and that while yes, I fit Tom's description, it would not be a task that I desired to take on- no matter how much I believed in AVSim as a vehicle.  I was also concerned that hanging a "new management" sign out and *not* pushing out the existing leadership team would only set up a conflict that was unneeded and wasteful.  Tom was not stupid- he saw the impracticality of it all very quickly- and we dropped the idea from our last conversations.

In the end, Tom predicted that Jim and I would have very different opinions about many different topics and we would never communicate as trusted friends and co-combatants the way Tom and I had always interacted.  He offered me his blessing to take PMDG in it's own direction when I felt the time was right to do so.  It was a very kind thing for a friend to do.

Contrary to all of the nitwhitery being bandied about by self-professed experts:  There was no boss-level clash in a back room someplace.  Jim is in charge, and has a vision for how he wants AVSim to grow and change and progress.  Some of those changes are much needed (anyone noticed that the site has been more stable lately?) and some were beginning to increase friction between the PMDG team and the AVSim team.  Complex interactions run on relationships- and with the loss of Tom- that left the problem solving to me and Jim and we just couldn't figure out how to communicate well.  Sometimes that happens between adults- but to be clear his Original Sin was to be the guy who followed Tom.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Tom was a dear friend, and I barely know Jim.  It is a big change, it happened with almost no warning and no matter how much either of us might try, Jim will never be Tom.  Change was hard for all of us to manage.

To reiterate:  There is nothing more, nothing less.

I think it would be disrespectful to everyone involved if PMDG stayed on here, making Jim's task harder, simply in order to satisfy some preconceived notion of how the relationship is supposed to work.  When i first agreed to have Tom host a forum for PMDG, i thought it would be a couple months.  I was wrong- it turned into a couple of decades and it was great fun for all of us.

Those who like to throw acid should really spend some time evaluating their own need for drama.  Jim and I are too old to want to waste time bickering over small stuff, and with this move we no longer have to.  It is better for AVSim, and for Jim's leadership vision of where AVSim needs to go- and it is better for PMDG's vision for how we want our forum to be run.

So stop second guessing something and making up details about which you know nothing.  Enjoy AVSim, and come visit us in our new forum.  They are different, but in the greater context of things- we are all the same.  We come here for the enjoyment of simming.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by rsrandazzo

[sloppysmusic 194]

1 hour ago, scandinavian13 said:

No need for hyperbole. I'm not at all sure why you're assuming any one of the mods would come in heavy handed on it.

Kyle, thanks for your quick response. Always happy to engage in a little friendly to and fro!

Who still wants FSX is going in the opposite way, so should have no room in the fllight sim community...

The above is saying quite clearly on a commercial forum that the PEOPLE who want FSX should well....not be allowed IN or be pushed out of (simming? pmdg forums? marketing plans?). Ahh community...so everything has no room for us.

I didn't expect heavy handed at all. I expected later today a classy official position statement denying that PMDG held similar views that simmers like me had no place in your forums. I'm only there now to solve the odd problem for users of (increasingly) other sims than mine. There are people like me who for our own intelligent reasons will not be getting any version of P3D under current licensing. Even though we are NOT in your plans at all as there is no product to sell I strongly believe you would not have us cast out? (Resisted temptation to embellish that with my usual wordy similes).

1 hour ago, scandinavian13 said:

at the age of 13. I was extremely impressed, as was most of the team.

DEFINITELY. Especially as he was a user of FSX and had the temerity to make his point on a (hostile to FSX?) forum. Kudos to the young man. Shame a comment on his own thread is now telling him he is not wanted unless he 'persuades' people to give him money...why could his sim of choice not actually be respected? Why does he have to come over to 'the other side' (I didn't say 'dark'!)? He has a valid point. Many of us cannot or will not get P3D. We are gonna miss you and the team lots Kyle! An analogy (here it comes!) is that we all supported PMDG the rock band in the local bars and danced to your songs, sharing our enjoyment on countless videos and screenshots. Then you get discovered and signed up (LM) and now refuse to play our little ol' towns and clubs, insisting on all seater arena concerts and TV spots only. Please don't tell us we have to save up for travel AND tickets AND accommodation to keep following you. Just play a secret local gig now and then? (release the JS41 for all platforms!).

1 hour ago, scandinavian13 said:

An announcement that we are ending 32 bit support (that's FSX, yes, but also FSX:SE and older versions of P3D) is not akin to it being toxic for FSX users. Tech companies not releasing video players that play my vintage BetaMax copy of Top Gun isn't toxic either - it's technological progress, and I have a neat piece of history.

I don't think 32 bit P3d-ers have any reason not to go 64 bit. Same as FSX Gold etc going to Steam. Makes sense to always have the most up to date version of your sim of choice. BTW I can walk into most record stores now and I can buy vinyl! It has that nice warm feeling digital (allegedly) lost in the conversion process. I'm not comparing that with 32 bit vs 64 but the warm friendliness of FSX-ers here vs the prevalent cold and superior attitude of multiple P3ders. It is everywhere you don't need to look hard in fact here at AVSIM recently a statement was made asking the 64 Bitters not to constantly post in FSX forums denigrating the problem solving and name calling instead. I had a thread of mine literally shut down for that reason. Thankfully resurrected after the warning/announcement.

Nor for a moment will you find a comment from me saying YOU are toxic for not releasing products that suit my system. (which works brilliantly thanks we are talking 2 products on a computer here loaded from SSD not SSD vs floppy disc which would suit your analogy better IMO). I and others just ask for your position and almost beg for you to reconsider and dont mind really being "told no sorry cant help you". We mind being told "YOU and your SIM is not welcome here"... THAT is the toxic part. Even if it was written by a user not the company, the lack of comment by the company about such comments infers agreement with the sentiment. You guys are prolific posters and are certainly on the ball within minutes, hence your reply here, so a 'mean' comment left without response is not due to you not reading it I am sure.

1 hour ago, scandinavian13 said:

Complains about "toxicity" by posting something toxic in indirect ad hom. Interesting angle...

We are talking about the view or opinion of someone that directly infers they wish a person of another opinion to not be around at all. To use hyperbole for sure here, a fascist argument or doctrine is linked directly to the fascist himself. Let not the human escape blame and culpability by saying it was the fault of his words or sentences that offense (and much worse) was caused. You cannot admonish prose!

I believe that asking or waiting for the quoted comment of which we are referring to attract at least an official comment is hardly toxic in itself. I have been known to be wrong on occasion however. I find your reply here to be more affable than restrained politeness. 

1 hour ago, scandinavian13 said:

Also: +1 for the vague reference to concepts covered in Godwin's Law.

Ha! The reason that thing is a thing at all is that the education of the majority these days is rather limited to extremes. How many know of Stalins pogroms? Vlad's impalements? Pol Pots 're-education' program? Everyone knows the guy with the mustache, so he gets the call I'm afraid for the sake of actually being understood. I DO lament it always HAS to be the same evil guy though, diversity is enlightening.

1 hour ago, scandinavian13 said:

Any citations to back your claims up, or are we just shooting from the hip, hoping that people there aren't paying attention over here.

Plenty on these forums, oh I know you are guys are still over here (a bonus!). I posted here as I did not want to post on your commercial forum out of respect. I DO have plenty of that. Got all your planes 'aven't I? 

😄

Edited March 7, 2019 by sloppysmusic
Typos

[sloppysmusic 194]

8 minutes ago, rsrandazzo said:

Enjoy AVSim, and come visit us in our new forum.  They are different, but in the greater context of things- we are all the same.  We come here for the enjoyment of simming.

Thanks for the wonderful information contained in that post. Humbling indeed. The above sentiment describes a situation worth maintaining for as long as possible. Worthy of being a forum banner itself, or within a TOS.

[HighFlier 17]

2 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-forum/general-discussion-news-and-announcements/4506-my-opinion-about-recent-decision-not-to-develop-new-products-for-microsoft-flight-simulator-x?p=4906#post4906

Waiting for the above to be moderated. Toxic atmosphere over there for FSX users. Non acceptance of our choices or even us ourselves. Makes me appreciate AVSIM even more for the diversity. It's a shame though all the bonhomerie and comradeship seems to be from the users of one sim, whereas the other seem to prefer the idea of some simmers and their sim being rounded up and forced onto trains...

Thanks Jim for providing leadership in a destabilizing environment. 

The vast majority of responses I see in that thread, including mine, are positive comments toward the kid and/or explaining the benefits to P3D. I see only a couple comments that are degrading, of which some people have already replied to those and asked them to back down. Overall, I don’t see the new PMDG forums as toxic for FSX users.

 

In fact I never have while they here. I used FSX until just a couple months ago before finally switching to P3Dv4 because I had the money. I never felt I was treated poorly. Perhaps the reality is somewhere in-between our different experiences.

[Captain Kevin 586]

3 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

https://forum.pmdg.com/forum/main-forum/general-discussion-news-and-announcements/4506-my-opinion-about-recent-decision-not-to-develop-new-products-for-microsoft-flight-simulator-x?p=4906#post4906

Waiting for the above to be moderated. Toxic atmosphere over there for FSX users. Non acceptance of our choices or even us ourselves. Makes me appreciate AVSIM even more for the diversity. It's a shame though all the bonhomerie and comradeship seems to be from the users of one sim, whereas the other seem to prefer the idea of some simmers and their sim being rounded up and forced onto trains...

Thanks Jim for providing leadership in a destabilizing environment. 

I already responded to said post, but considering who it was who made that post in the first place, and given said person's posting history, I actually find it difficult to take his posts seriously.

[anden145 2,284]

Don't feed the troll, guys...

Frankly, I can't see the claims of persecution, that he is insisting on. To be honest, I have a feeling he's seeing ghosts, where there are none.

On the other hand, I guess it's perfectly normal, that the minority feels oppressed and persecuted, when they sense, that their voices aren't being heard.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Anders Bermann

[Bob Scott 7,716]

OK folks, what needed to be said has been said...PMDG's move is a done deal, AVSIM and PMDG are not at war with one another, and butthurt over community migration away from FSX is off-topic here and needs to be in another thread.

So...this one is in the books.

Regards