Ethiopia crash

[Bobsk8 12,584]

3 minutes ago, Anders Bermann said:

While that is true, with regards to Ethiopian Airlines, the continent itself is generally behind when it comes to modern radio and navigation equipment etc... I read an article from a British Airways pilot, who said that in some parts of Africa, pilots needed to agree on flight-levels, altitude and navigation / heading, by talking directly to each other - simply because of lacking or missing ATC coverage.

There must be a reason that many airlines simply avoid flying to Africa, so please just stop this self-proclaimed offensiveness! 

(Oh, boy - I probably stuck my head in a hornets-nest here...)

Your comment makes no sense, regarding this accident, which was shortly after takeoff, from a major airport. . 

Edited March 10, 2019 by Bobsk8

[qqwertz 772]

1 hour ago, Peter Webber said:

Very unfair comment my friend. Do you have information as to the composition of the flight crew and basing your judgement on that? Flying in Africa, I find that the usual stereotypical view of the continent I'm afraid.

You are absolutely right about that, Peter. I flew with Ethiopian last year to Addis Ababa in a 777. They are a member of Star Alliance and their operations are more or less on the same level as that of the other members. The fact that they are flying a brand new plane is an indicator.

Peter

[Bob Scott 7,716]

The ADS-B data posted by FlightRadar shows that the first 2.5 min of the flight exhibited major vertical speed excursions, varying from +2400 to -1920 fpm, with the jet accelerating the entire time to ~335 KIAS.  The climb rate stabilized at around 2600 fpm for the last 15 seconds of data.  The data stopped at 8600 ft STP (around 9200 ft MSL with field press of 1039 hPa/30.68 in), at 05:41:02 UTC, approximately 3 min before the time the jet was reportedly lost on radar.  At 1 min 37 seconds after liftoff, the jet was only 900 ft above airport elevation, and began a 20 second descent excursion that peaked at -1920 fpm and resulted in a 400 ft loss of altitude to only 500' above airport elevation.  I haven't seen a ground track yet, but HAAB is surrounded by towering cumulogranite, with min safe altitude in the NE quadrant (direction of takeoff) of 14000 ft and 13500 ft in all other directions.

For whatever reason, the crew did not keep the pointy end up after takeoff...the jet was oscillating up/down starting soon after takeoff while accelerating steadily to well past normal climb speed.  To be at only 500' above field elevation over 2 min after liftoff in mountainous terrain is bad, bad juju. 

Regards

 

[rmeier 473]

To all the families impacted by this terrible tragedy, my sincerest condolences. Let us not forget the dramatic loss of innocent lives from this accident.

History has demonstrated that travel, by any form of transportation, unfortunately, has its risks. In time, the root cause of this accident will be known and measures will be put in place to prevent recurrence. Speculation does not resolve issues…and may cause unnecessary pain to those who are already suffering from this tragic loss today.

Rest in peace for all those of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302.

[Christopher Low 5,341]

That sounds dangerously similar to the problems experienced by the Lion Air flight. If that is confirmed, then I tend to agree with Murmur.

[Adrian123 1,015]

4 minutes ago, w6kd said:

The ADS-B data posted by FlightRadar shows that the first 2.5 min of the flight exhibited major vertical speed excursions, varying from +2400 to -1920 fpm, with the jet accelerating the entire time to ~335 KIAS

Same as the previous incident! Preliminary finger pointing? BOEING MAX 737. I won't get on one.

[vc10man 732]

20 minutes ago, qqwertzde said:

You are absolutely right about that, Peter. I flew with Ethiopian last year to Addis Ababa in a 777. They are a member of Star Alliance and their operations are more or less on the same level as that of the other members. The fact that they are flying a brand new plane is an indicator.

Peter

Spot-on sensible observation, because, if 'according to that BA pilot, .......etc, etc', then I am fairly sure the European Union would have misgivings of such flights into Europe. Same may apply for the USA, I do not know. But surely the  Star Alliance would raise an eyebrow or two?

[Bob Scott 7,716]

19 minutes ago, Adrian123 said:

Same as the previous incident! Preliminary finger pointing? BOEING MAX 737. I won't get on one.

If it was the same problem, I'd have to question why the crew didn't immediately disengage the stab trim and trim manually with the wheels, which is the corrective action for an MCAS problem as I understand it, and should be fresh in everyone's minds after the Lion Air crash.  2-3 min fighting the acft trying to get it to behave normally is an eternity when you need to be climbing right now to stay clear of the mountains all around you.

Of course this could also be a weight and balance or shifting cargo problem, one kamikaze pilot fighting the other pilot trying to crash the plane, or some other sort of mechanical issue--all of those things have happened before.  Thanks to modern data downlinking, we already know a lot about *what* the jet did...but we know nothing yet about *why* it did that.

Too early to throw stones.

Regards

[Reader 2,009]

Just my opinion of course but with the friends and relatives of 157 poeple just starting to be faced with the fact that they are gone and the people who do actually know what happened saying that it is too early to determine what happened, let alone a cause, might it be better to close the topic instead of leading it on?

Edited March 10, 2019 by nolonger

[threexgreen 3,135]

2 hours ago, nolonger said:

Just my opinion of course but with the friends and relatives of 157 poeple just starting to be faced with the fact that they are gone and the people who do actually know what happened saying that it is too early to determine what happened, let alone a cause, might it be better to close the topic instead of leading it on?

I was reading the report at the Aviation Herald and as usual the comments contain some rather eyebrow raising content, aka intensive speculation and claims as to the cause. One poster even starting pointing fingers at Ethiopian Airlines staff members, citing their names and saying criminal charges against these people would likely be coming up. You'd think that website would be full of people who know what they're talking about and who are blessed with some common sense.

As long as this thread discusses the accident an a sophisticated manner, which I am confident it will, I see no reason to lock it down.

[IUBrian 151]

From the Washington Post - 

“An Ethiopian Airlines executives said Sunday the airplane had “no technical remarks” and was flown by an experienced pilot. He said the pilot mentioned he was having difficulty and wanted to return before he lost contact with air traffic control.”

[John_Cillis 2,406]

6 hours ago, Peter Webber said:

Very unfair comment my friend. Do you have information as to the composition of the flight crew and basing your judgement on that? Flying in Africa, I find that the usual stereotypical view of the continent I'm afraid.

I was not making any comment about the flight crew, who assumes it is always the flight crew at fault?  Directly put first of all your flame is unfair and baseless and the mods should have responded, second by origin I meant the ever present possibility of sabotage or terrorism.  Happens here in the US too but all too unfortunately in the Middle East, unless you have a different history involved and want to raise the errant flight crew flag, which I have not. 

But you beg the question, why are flight crews going thru this.  Sully went thru the inquisition after the Hudson ditching, as if pilots are expected to be robots with reaction times beyond Joe Montana or an athlete.  Heck, even drivers are expected of that and I hold drivers to that standard, especially after being run over last sunday and bruised to within an inch of my life by a road terrorist, which I say is anyone who gets behind the wheel and drives with such speed that they no longer care for others. 

Airline pilots are almost proven not terrorists, less than a handful of incidents have been proven over the years which dates back to the beginning of time.  Yet they are not saints, many are former fighter or bomber pilots, even in the smaller countries, not their fault because getting an ATP license is a monumental and expensive undertaking. 

And I was no saint as a pilot, I was just feeling like in heaven due to flying and even being on the ground after.  For me the cockpit, and cabin crew walk on water.  Heck, when I learned how to fly I was more ambitious as a driver, it came from the euphoria and distraction of remembering what it felt like to be given full control of my aircraft by my CFI, Jason Bullard, half my age but with twice the wisdom....

John

[zmak 331]

12 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

The first crash was easily explained, part instrument problem and part pilot training. This problem is unsolved, so I seriously doubt if the fleet will be grounded. 

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/10/africa/china-boeing-ethiopian-air-crash-intl/index.html

[John_Cillis 2,406]

10 minutes ago, zmak said:

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/10/africa/china-boeing-ethiopian-air-crash-intl/index.html

Hopefully the black boxes if in good shape can help.   I am sure the major aviation investigation agencies from many countries will help.  I still remember the movie, Fate Is the Hunter, was a very interesting movie on aircraft accidents and the rush to judge the flight crew vs other circumstances.  Even shifting cargo can cause an accident, or wind shear, as we saw in that JFK accident many years ago, which was probably the most unnerving accident for me and changed the way rudder use was taught.  Aircraft are just that, heavy machines fighting the air with or without the pilot's input, I learned that as soon as I stepped out of simming to take flight lessons, that real flying with such a dynamic atmosphere was incredibly different. 

My CFI even warned me that with Light Sport and light aircraft, lighter than most GA, Phoenix had a "flying season" and much beyond the spring equinox, flying Microlights and ultralights can be incredibly daunting in the desert.  When I went to Travis one year with a student group from Jr. High, we were told by the tower staff that wake turbulence from a C5 could flip one of their 737 transport jets.  So when you look at aviation's overall safety record, which is improving over time given the number of hours flown, it is just amazing that these metal behemoths are safer as I learned from even being a pedestrian walking down the street.  Airport security is safer, my brother went to work for the TSA between 9-11 and his passing and helped my wife and daughter when they got stuck at the airport on a long delay.  He brought them home so they could rest, was given time away from work, and got them expedited thru security after their flight was reinstated some twelve hours late. 

Aircraft maintenance is better, aircraft routing is better, ATC is improving all the time.  An amazing video posted here was Dubai's ATC, amazing dedicated, international workers and an insight into the most modern of ATC.  I know the people on that airliner were sadly lost, but they were still under the benevolence of ATC, their flight crew, and the airline's support staff, and will not be forgotten, for in the end it is not the pilots in airline transport or the ground crew, or ATC, but the passengers who get the aircraft airborne by keeping faith in aviation even after disasters. 

Tenerife happened just three days before my first flight to Europe (cannot recall if I left on March 31st or first couple of days in April, I only know I flew home on a Sunday about a week into April).  My Mom was scared for my going but we were also seasoned air travelers, all of my family, I used to fly every two months as a five year old between LAX and SFO or OAK and back to visit with my Uncle.  My Mom knew I wanted to go, and I assumed the risk.  In 1991 I was warned of a bomb threat called into my flight right after Gulf 1 and told I had the option to wait for my flight back to JFK from Frankfurt. 

But I know those things happen more than the news mentions and I know the pilots would not have boarded the flight if they felt it was a legitimate threat, so I assumed the risk and nothing happened.  Accidents like my recent car incident make us want to stop assuming risk but my nurses and the police told me again not to think that way, do not let fear of the unknown defeat your enjoyment of life, life is too short and fleeting, which having nearly died a week ago in shock and with zero blood pressure I know all too well.  I am not invincible, but as a traveler I like not to stand out, and that is what we do to keep travel alive after a tragedy like this one.  

John

[overspeed3 410]

Did everybody in Ethiopian Airlines learn nothing from the Lion Air crash to ensure that their own pilots knew what to do in almost the exact same 737MAX out-of-configuration emergency situation?  Plus, there were reportedly problems with the air speed indicators at least four times prior to this crash... 

In any case, this is way to early to assess the situation for cause,,,