Viable alternative to expensive throttle quadrants?

[Chocorua 112]

20 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I did find it frustrating when I wrote to them that they wouldn't consider a Boeing-style quadrant. They cited machine costs as the reason but when all that is needed is a reshaping on the top cover and modifying the levers I don't understand.

I'm hopeless at DIY which is why I look for finished products. Post some pics when you've got the box sorted for the TQ6.

I hear you Ray, I'm not that great at DIY but get better as time goes on. I'v made a half dozen MIPs for my sim and still, I will do another when the weather turns warm. Uh, anyway, I'll take some photos and post, but only if I judge it good enough! Heck, this time of year, being retired I have loads of time. Anyway, back on topic...V-Fly could do so much with the TQ6 but they seem to be content with it as it is. I hope someone steps up and fabricates a nice quadrant box and levers someday. Metal ones...😉

The vinyl quadrant box I used was flimsy. Even screwed down and bolted to the quadrants it seemed to flex and squawk, if I recall. Again, it was some years ago. Perhaps other users can chime in with their opinions.   

[flyforever 267]

 

As the maker of the FSXthrotte quadrants, I'd like to chip in a bit--not to promote my products, but to shed a bit of light on the business of building hardware for the flight sim market. Those of you who recognize my username know that I never use these forums to promote my products.

As I point out in my website, I decided to offer quadrants to the community after discarding my Saitek due to a faulty pot and no replacements. I, too, looked at the alternate choices and saw two extremes: the low end and not very realistic looking quadrants like the saitek and ch, and the high end, nice, very realistic, but outside my price range.

When I designed my quadrants, I knew that I had to try to hit a "sweet" spot,both in terms of features, life like looks, and all at an attractive price.

Building hardware for a small market means that shipping costs will represent almost 50% of costs. For example, if I need one screw, often  I need to purchase it on the web. The screw may cost $.15, but shipping may be $5.00. So I am forced to purchase 100 screws for, let's say, $9.00, including shipping. This happens with many other components,  and so thousands need to be spent before building the first one.  One can quickly see that going from design to finished product is costly. There's no "early access" for us. It's either right, or the customer will be unhappy. So my design had to fit "manufacturing" in order for it to work.

There's also the fact that sims and aircrafts don't have standard functions or similar programmability. For example, a simple task of making a gear go up or down realistically is a big deal in fsx  unless one uses FSUIPC. The same is true for flaps control. Some aircraft have 8 notches; others have 3 settings. Only our quadrants have a flap template that can be removed and replaced with one that has 3 notches in less than one minute a a screwdriver.  By offering this option, I had to make "design" compromises. However, if my customer today is in love with the 737, and tomorrow decides to go to a different aircraft with different flap configurations, he will be able to do so effortlessly.

You get the picture.

I have no trouble stating that my quadrants are a compromise between high fidelity and mass produced ones, depending on your budget, and your needs-- and most importantly, your simming fantasies ( yes, we all picture ourselves being in a real cockpit when we fly)

Some folks are suspicious of the site?  Well, I don't advertise, and prefer to do business by word of mouth. I am a one person enterprise, and see my activity more as a service to the community than a business. I am retired, have paid my mortgage, and my kids are out of the house. So I prefer to deal with serious customers who know what they want after they've researched all the available products.

I take great pride in what I make, so, yes, I  provide lifetime warranty so long as I am alive and kicking. This is no different than any  other individual or business who is here today and gone tomorrow. Saitek is a good example.  As to service defective products, it rarely happens, but when it happens that a quadrant arrives defective, here's what I do. If it's in the States, I take it back with no questions asked.  One case in particular was with a British customer. When he received it, several things were either broken or not functional. After explaining how these items were assembled, he was able to make the repairs. I felt so bad about the experience that I offered him a full refund and he could keep the quadrant. He offered to take only half of the refund after I insisted.

The good thing about the fsxthrottle quadrants is that they can be easily disassembled , repaired, and customized. For example, to replace a pot is a 3 minute operation.

Some folks claim that they are made of "wood" and therefore not reliable, or "cheap".

MDF is a wood composite product that will last forever if you don't leave it outside in the rain. It's as rigid( I didn't say strong) as metal and provides a good compromise between cost and having a solid quadrant. I've had my first quadrant for 6 years without a hickup. I've been a manufacturer all of my life, and I know that the very best airplane would either be too heavy or too expensive. Compromises need to be made.

Some folks are looking for Hall pots. I will be offering hall pots at my cost, which today is appx 15.00 each. Frankly, I think these pots are a waste of money if standard pots can be replaced easily on a quadrant. Hall pots require new gearing and parts dimensioning, so we're being careful about offering them to the public until we get everything right. And any vendor that claims to be using high quality  pots, I suggest you ask them the brand name. High quality pots are expensive, just like Hall pots. Good Hall pots currently cost appx $20. This is the same cost as quality pots. 

When working with a 747 Cargolux pilot on a life like 747 quadrant, I asked about the accuracy of a real quadrant. He said that in real life nothing is perfect. It's rare that they don't need to tweak each individual throttle lever when they fly. And it's also rare that each lever feels exactly the same on every aircraft. As with all mechanisms, there's some variability.

Lastly, as with any product, time is needed to perfect them. With every sale, we always learn something, and so we try to improve them as well as introduce new features. For example, CNC plotted text will be standard on our quadrants. Why CNC pen plotted text? I never like decals.

Are we perfect? No, but as someone here has noted, when we get an order, we thank the customer and we ask questions to make sure they know what they need and want. Often, we've gotten on the phone and taken him or her step by step through the calibration and programming of the various buttons and features.

One customer had one of our Twin quadrants and then one day decided that he wanted a second one to look like more like a vintage beech Baron.  If it's possible, we will build it.

I've attached a photo as an example of what I am talking about.

Why no presence at the sim shows? My fear is too much business resulting from a show. If my business increases, I would  need to retool or start making customers unhappy due to long wait times. When manufacturing hardware that each customer sees as unique, there are many unintended consequences, as Boeing just found out the hard way. And scaling up is not so easy or cheap. I think one high fidelity throttle quadrant maker has just passed ownership. The market is just too small to make real money. Does anyone wonder why logitech or CH have stuck to the old models and not changed in so many years?  I can bet that their priorities are not in the simming market.

Ray, the good news is that there are quite a few good quadrants out there to choose from. And more are coming. Hope you soon find what you're looking for. Your concerns are valid.

tony

 

 

[Ray Proudfoot 8,924]

1 hour ago, Chocorua said:

The vinyl quadrant box I used was flimsy. Even screwed down and bolted to the quadrants it seemed to flex and squawk, if I recall. Again, it was some years ago. Perhaps other users can chime in with their opinions.   

Hi Greg, it sounds a different box to the one that flightsimpm-uk produce which holds two quadrants snugly so I don’t see how the box could then flex. When did it flex? When you were moving the throttles? That’s the only action isn’t it? Just forwards and backwards.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,924]

Hi Tony,

Thsnk you very much for that very informative post. I fully understand designing and then manufacturing a quadrant is far from straightforward and if you get things wrong it is costly.

I’m currently in the market for a yoke and saw a 3D printed one at the Cosford show last October. I’m in touch with the designer and he visits the flight sim group I’m a member of each month with a progress report. I can try it and when I’m happy then the purchase does become easier with hands-on experience. How I wish you lived closer because it would make these decisions so much easier.

Construction from MDF is fine. Loudspeakers are built from it as it’s dense and acoustically fairly dead. Not features essential for a quadrant but strength is so that’s important. Certainly far better than plastic.

You mentioned Hall pots. A typo perhaps. A Hall-effect sensor has no moving parts and will last almost indefinitely. Quite unlike even the best potentiometers. What grade pots do you use based on 1 representing Saitek quality and 10 the best on the market? Can they be changed by the user with minimal DIY skills? Are they freely available from various outlets around the world or are they specialist only available in the US.

Youll appreciate that when you say you’re retired and are a one-man band it does put any warranty into perspective.

And whilst I’m disappointed you won’t be coming to England to demonstrate your quadrants I do understand your reasons and they make perfect sense.

I will continue to search for throttle quadrants and hopefully the one that’s right for me will turn up before long.

Take care and thanks once again. It’s always good to hear from people like yourself to help us better understand the picture from your side of the counter.

[Chocorua 112]

1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Hi Greg, it sounds a different box to the one that flightsimpm-uk produce which holds two quadrants snugly so I don’t see how the box could then flex. When did it flex? When you were moving the throttles? That’s the only action isn’t it? Just forwards and backwards.

Ray,

Yes, the vinyl movement was while levers were pushed/pulled. I remember being amazed how much I did not like it. I had two quadrants mounted to it. Anyway, I don't wish to dissuade you from trying it and sincerely hope it works well! 

I think I purchased it from PC Aviator and it was shipped from overseas, but I cannot remember what country. Getting too old and it was several years ago. 

Good luck if you try it and please post your findings.

Thanks.

[flyforever 267]

Hi Ray,

I use the term Hall Pots as a short for Hall effect potentiometers. There's absolutely no disagreement  with respect to the difference between a Hall sensor and a standard pot.

A standard pot is noisy , and as it ages, it becomes increasingly more unreliable. In fact, if Saitek had equipped their units with hall sensor pots, like Logitech did with one of their joysticks, most saiteks sold would still be in use today.

My case for this or that in a quadrant is based more on the reality of cost vs expectations as what people can budget . A Hall sensor starts at $15. A standard pot starts at $.50.

I purchase my pots from an American company in large quantities. They are definitely a few grades above the ones from China, but, honestly, I have no way to know.  The cost of pots is pretty much based on electrical tolerance, and mechanical components( bearing or no bearing, sealed or not sealed). Electrical material, too, is a big factor.

I have been using my first prototype quadrant  for the past 6 years, and the pots are still good. My Saitek had lasted me 5 years, I think. So, I would say that pots should be replaced every 5 years or so to stay ahead of the noise factor and normal wear and tear.

My design philosophy has been to breakdown a quadrant to a point where a customer can make choices based on what's important to them and how much quadrant they can afford. It's like when MS came out with Flight Simulator. At the time, I found the black and white cessna panel 8 bit  rough graphics out of this world. In fact, the biggest expense was my having to purchase an IBM pc, which at the time were very pricey.

I am 67, healthy, and according to life expectancy for men living in the USA. I think it's safe to assume that our quadrants have at least a 10 year life guarantee. LOL

I may go to the Florida flightsim conference. I have not decided yet.I used to live on the East Coast. Now, living on the west coast makes flying to Europe a very long flight.

Like everyone else, I'm also waiting to see the new quadrants that had been promised last year and keep getting delayed. I understand why, and I hope they don't run out of cash. 

One more thing about rigidity of quadrants. Part of the movement of any throttle lever is governed by at least two factors: a pivot point well below the pilot's hand; and the need to have a low coefficent of friction along the points of contact. The only way to achieve this is by the use of precision bearings at the pivot point. A properly designed metal lever and a good bearing will guarantee zero lateral movement.

All other methods of construction  will always have a degree of lateral sway. How much is acceptable is in the hand of the beholder.

tony

 

tony

 

[Bob Scott 7,715]

3 hours ago, flyforever said:

My case for this or that in a quadrant is based more on the reality of cost vs expectations as what people can budget . A Hall sensor starts at $15. A standard pot starts at $.50.

I purchase my pots from an American company in large quantities. They are definitely a few grades above the ones from China, but, honestly, I have no way to know.  The cost of pots is pretty much based on electrical tolerance, and mechanical components( bearing or no bearing, sealed or not sealed). Electrical material, too, is a big factor.

Thanks for jumping in here, Tony.

With regards to cost vs expectations, that differential is certainly big if the buyer is only considering the up-front cost, but the beauty of the HE sensors is never needing to go in and replace those $0.50 pots, incurring $200 worth of butt pain in the process--either taking it apart and doing the work themselves, or having to ship it back to you for transducer replacements.

I think that a more cost-effective HE solution is possible if designed to use the HE DIPs and good magnets...my PFC throttle quad retrofit uses Allegro A1321 Hall sensors moving between a set of neodymium magnets attached to brass piers.  The sensors were around $2.50 each, and the 1/2" cube magnets about the same.  OTOH, the ball-bearing Honeywell rotary sensors I used as (sorta kinda) drop-in replacements for the pots on the PFC yoke were more like $40 each.

I looked at your site, and Hall Effect sensors are not listed as one of the upgrade options.  I most definitely think they should be.  That puts your product into a whole different class IMHO.

Regards

[G-RFRY 1,706]

Hi Ray 

Aerosoft will be selling the honeycomb throttle quadrant and are taking pre orders, now we now they will be at Cosford and by then they should be available it may be worth asking if they will be bringing hardware to the show to get hands on.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,924]

1 hour ago, rjfry said:

Hi Ray 

Aerosoft will be selling the honeycomb throttle quadrant and are taking pre orders, now we now they will be at Cosford and by then they should be available it may be worth asking if they will be bringing hardware to the show to get hands on.

Hi Raymond, I have doubts that unit is any better than the Saitek / Logitech alternatives given the cost is about the same or only slightly more.

There are two things that put me off. 1) Horizontal position of levers at idle and 2) when levers are fully forward how accessible are the buttons on the body?

Just heard back from FlightsimPM. They have been at Cosford since 2015 and sell lots of hardware. Might wait until then so I can handle the 777 unit and take it from there.

[Chocorua 112]

 

10 hours ago, flyforever said:

I may go to the Florida flightsim conference.

 

 

Interesting reading Tony, hopefully you get to MCO in June. Thanks for stepping up and sharing a bit of your product's story.

Greg G   

[Ray Proudfoot 8,924]

12 hours ago, Chocorua said:

Ray,

Yes, the vinyl movement was while levers were pushed/pulled. I remember being amazed how much I did not like it. I had two quadrants mounted to it. Anyway, I don't wish to dissuade you from trying it and sincerely hope it works well! 

I think I purchased it from PC Aviator and it was shipped from overseas, but I cannot remember what country. Getting too old and it was several years ago. 

Good luck if you try it and please post your findings.

Thanks.

I'm giving this second thoughts despite the cost being minimal. I have been in touch with Andi at Flightsimpm (Italy) and apparently they have had a stand at Cosford since 2015 and have sold lots of hardware. It's manned by their UK staff.

It will be a great opportunity for me to get my hands on the 777 quadrant or maybe the 737 one. Try before you buy. They aren't connected to PCs but that isn't really important when assessing them.

I suspect your plastic holder came from Hong Kong. I checked PC Aviator but no sign of the unit so it looks they may have dropped it. I can cope with my current setup until October.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,924]

@flyforever, Hi Tony. Thanks for your reply. I find it curious you feel it's still worth sticking with pots even though you accept they will eventually fail and require replacement. Did I read you correctly when you said Hall-effect sensores start at $15 and pots at $50. Surely the other way around?

We're the same age! Whether that's a good thing or not I couldn't say.

I can understand a trip to Europe would be undesirable for you.

I'm not in any hurry to get the quadrant. I firmly believe in doing reasearch when buying something expensive just to make sure I have made the right decision. Thanks for posting your thoughts - always nice to hear views of constructors.

[MarkW 1,490]

Why the hate for plastics.  As someone who has worked in the plastics industry for 30+ years I have to say its getting a bad rap.  The issue is not necessarily plastics but perhaps the selection of the plastic.  All car door handles are plastic (glass filled nylon) and are as strong or stronger than steel.  They also have a "heavy" feel.  Just saying that plastics can make a very solid, strong and reliable product as a good price point!

 

[zmak 331]

Ray I did a double take when I came across the cost as well but there is a little decimal point in front of that 50 which makes them very cheap . Somebody mentioned if Tony offered hall sensors as an addon along with the paint :))  that it would be a good option

[MarkW 1,490]

On 3/21/2019 at 7:52 AM, MarkDH said:

Just seen this today, if you can wait a bit longer.

 

 

Any indication of price point and release date?