Possible New PC for P3Dv4

[busdriver 258]

Paul,

Sorry, not feeding a troll any further. Your advice was neither helpful nor realistic. 

I'm about to start a 3 day trip, lets let this rest.

 

 

[AnkH 2,261]

The problem, Paul, is not that you are absolutely right about pure numbers, but that you are simply overestimating them, that is why I initially said "exaggerated". Take your example 9700K vs. 9900K. The all core turbo of the 9900K is just 100Mhz more (4.7 vs. 4.6GHz). If you think that this makes the difference from all sliders to the right to compromises as I have to accept, you are just fooled by Intel marketing. Or to use your words: I can't for the life of me understand how anybody with a brain can think that more PC is relevant more performance. Again, you obviously have no idea how P3D performs on current rigs and what improvement of which hardware component plays really a role... Otherwise your sentence about how well your current rig performs makes even less sense. No matter if you can accept it or not, a 10'000$ rig will never outperform a 3000$ rig to the extent you are dreaming of. I suggest to have a chat with Rob Ainscough, he has such a monster rig and guess what? All sliders right is not even for him possible.

Edited April 2, 2019 by AnkH

[jmdriskell 178]

Lots of out here w/o brains but in quest of friendly knowledge.

[pracines 823]

Thank you Chris,

3 hours ago, AnkH said:

Take your example 9700K vs. 9900K. The all core turbo of the 9900K is just 100Mhz more (4.7 vs. 4.6GHz).

You know that where you get your CPU makes a difference, how its overclocked makes a difference, what MOBO is used makes a difference, the bios and on and on. The make, kind, and speed of the memory makes a difference. I originally spoke of a complete system FOR ME which would include multi-monitor (& how its connected - yes the cables do make a difference) and speakers/headsets which all make a difference. Cheap components will not help, top quality components all working in harmony (no bottle necks) make a difference and it is not cheap. Less than $5000 to attain max sliders at 60 PFS is not likely possible but spend 5,000 more and its not a problem at all. When you think about it $10,000 gets to be a low figure depending on monitor size; $15,000 may be more like it.😁

I did not get into "specific" prices (i.e. $498.97 for a MOBO) because many of us have dealers that we often use and we know the owners or managers and we get a discount for being a long term good customer. But for example, though ones system is valued (retail) at $10,000 they will actually pay say $7,000. Just general price ranges, because I know $2500-$3500 is NOT a good PC sys price for P3D 4+, busdrivers own comments proves this. 

3 hours ago, AnkH said:

No matter if you can accept it or not, a 10'000$ rig will never outperform a 3000$ rig to the extent you are dreaming of

What was the extent that I was dreaming of? You could not have any idea, because I did not describe any extent. I said that one should be in the $5-9,000 range to have best results for an advanced user in P3D, this is the solid truth.

I never said this was required by everybody and I never insinuated that this price range is available to everybody. The market sets the prices, and that is the reality. A few responses have kind of made it "my fault" that a TITAN RTX retails at $2499  (the price of busdrivers whole system).

3 hours ago, AnkH said:

I suggest to have a chat with Rob Ainscough, he has such a monster rig and guess what? All sliders right is not even for him possible.

I have chatted with him and he said full right is what he sets. I doubted this at first, but when I asked him to specify settings he made it crystal clear every thing full right - 60FPS. You are the one who needs to chat with him.

--------

The morale of the story is more is more. And I know for sure if everybody here could afford a $10,000 w/o problem, they would all get a $10,000 system. I think envy is at play here more than anything. Again I'm not saying that every simmer "wants or has to have" (based on their budget) full right at 60FPS, but I know for sure if they could have it they would.

Also keep in mind that the OP is new to Avsim and to make them think that a cheaper system is fine for P3D is not being truthful to them. But even so I tried to make it clear enough that you get what you pay for. This way they have no "cause" to come here with countless inquires about terrible performance/appearance - we have way too much of that already! 

Edited April 3, 2019 by pracines

[vortex681 806]

18 hours ago, pracines said:

Less than $5000 to attain max sliders at 60 PFS is not likely possible but spend 5,000 more and its not a problem at all.

I assume you're speaking from personal experience here rather than someone else's opinion? Also, as AnkH said earlier, once you get past about $3,000 (something like this: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/pZWkMZ) you're up against the law of diminishing returns as far as flight sims go. For most of us, the extra, small incremental gains you'd achieve wouldn't justify the massively increased cost of something like a $10,000 system. Even if money's not a problem, spending $10,000 on an exclusively flight sim system is money wasted in my opinion. It's the difference between (possibly) having ALL the sliders to the right or MOST of the sliders to the right - you probably wouldn't even notice the difference except to your wallet.

Edited April 3, 2019 by vortex681

[pracines 823]

15 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

I assume you're speaking from personal experience here rather than someone else's opinion? Also, as AnkH said earlier, once you get past about $3,000 (something like this: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/pZWkMZ) you're up against the law of diminishing returns as far as flight sims go. For most of us, the extra, small incremental gains you'd achieve wouldn't justify the massively increased cost of something like a $10,000 system. Even if money's not a problem, spending $10,000 on an exclusively flight sim system is money wasted in my opinion. It's the difference between (possibly) having ALL the sliders to the right or MOST of the sliders to the right - you probably wouldn't even notice the difference except to your wallet.

The diminishing of returns law would only apply if there were no such thing as add-ons for P3D. The P3D add-on eco-system is very dynamic and getting more complex as the days pass. 

Surely with the knowledge you must have, you realize that P3D is what we make it. Add-ons are the difference. And also you surely would know that many add-ons have their sliders/settings as well, and they do make a difference too. Just thinking about a couple specifics; ASP4/ASCA and how dense the clouds can get with heavy rain IFR and how far away we can set the clouds are drawn. AIG OCI AI traffic during rush hour at KATL; with a "$10,000 system", them dynamics (even a combo of the two) will not cause a performance concern, with a "$5000 system" there will be a concern (lowering of sliders), and so the difference is known before hand --- it's called paying for peace of mind and we would notice a difference. Plus we are "more" ready for the next rendition of P3D.

I have seen countless posts about --- "I just bought a new state of the art system for $4000 (or under 5), why is P3Dv4 running so slow" - this forum has plenty of these kind of posts. The reason is, $4000 is kind of a cheap system for P3Dv4, certainly not "state of the art". For FS9 yes, but not P3Dv4 or FSX even, unless one has no add-ons and does not intend to get any add-ons, but that is very unlikely. W/O any add-ons at all P3D will run great on a $2500 PC.

Again general terms, because I'm not trying to be a professor of economics here.😂 

*****keep in mind I'm not talking the price if one builds the PC themselves -- one can save a lot of $, and that is a separate topic, I have not built my own PC in over 15 years*****

[vortex681 806]

1 minute ago, pracines said:

The diminishing of returns law would only apply if there were no such thing as add-ons for P3D. The P3D add-on eco-system is very dynamic and getting more complex as the days pass.

The bottom line is that no developer (including LM, in the case of P3D) is going to make an add-on which requires a supercomputer to run well within the flight sim. The potential customer base would be so tiny it wouldn't justify the development costs.

2 minutes ago, pracines said:

I have seen countless posts about --- "I just bought a new state of the art system for $4000 (or under 5), why is P3Dv4 running so slow" - this forum has plenty of these kind of posts. The reason is, $4000 is kind of a cheap system for P3Dv4, certainly not "state of the art". For FS9 yes, but not P3Dv4 or FSX even, unless one has no add-ons and does not intend to get any add-ons, but that is very unlikely. W/O any add-ons at all P3D will run great on a $2500 PC.

You're obviously looking at different forums to me then. I'm not saying there aren't any, but I certainly haven't seen any posts complaining about performance issues with computers which cost that much. There are plenty of posts complaining about performance but they are usually down to old, sub-par systems, failing hardware or poor setups. I'm sure that the vast majority of users wouldn't consider a $4000 system "kind of cheap" for P3D. I'd hazard a guess that most wouldn't dream of spending that much on a system (just the PC box, not including peripherals). I don't agree at all with your assertion that P3D or FSX wouldn't run well on a system costing less than $2500. Plenty of us here manage it (and with quality payware add-ons) - my PC is a good example. I may not get a steady 60 FPS but flight sims don't need that sort of framerate to run well - many 4k users cap their FPS at 30 anyway!

16 minutes ago, pracines said:

*****keep in mind I'm not talking the price if one builds the PC themselves -- one can save a lot of $, and that is a separate topic, I have not built my own PC in over 15 years*****

Things have changed a lot since you last built a system. You can certainly save money building yourself but not nearly as much as you once could. More of a factor over the cost is the ability to select your own components and the satisfaction you get from having built it. There are plenty of pre-built systems around with good quality components which don't cost too much more than self-builds - bulk buying allows manufacturers to order components much cheaper than you or I could.

[pracines 823]

38 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

The bottom line is that no developer (including LM, in the case of P3D) is going to make an add-on which requires a supercomputer to run well within the flight sim. The potential customer base would be so tiny it wouldn't justify the development costs.

You already forgot about True Earth - Orbx lost some "customer faith" over the single season topic. I/we realize that multiple seasons with such detail requires huge HD space, but surely its soon to be possible/easy. There are already 16 TB SSD's but they cost about $6,000 from $10,000 just 3 or 4 years ago. 5G is around the corner. I think Orbx understand like I understand that HD space/speed will increase dramatically along with 5G speeds, making True Earth detail possible on a more global scale. With these HD and DL speed increases, surely CPU speeds will increase too, or does anybody think Intel/AMD will simply agree that 5GHz is just some imaginary limit that cannot be exceeded for homebased computing? 

If we think like you, we will never have "True Earth" on a global scale. But how many simmers in the FS8/FS9 days would have even dreamed of the Orbx Global Suite we have today as an even common/second nature add-on!   

The bottom line is MSFS always required a "super-computer" for each version in its time, it is a delusion to think otherwise. You don't remember when the newest version of MSFS came out that even the best PC was not fast enough? We had to wait for hardware to catch up but sales of MSFS always increased. That got reversed because of MS going backward after FSX. Well P3D is beginning to "catch up" with hardware & with newer technologies once again - they essentially had to slow down ( this is where you likely misunderstand the situation ) because from around 2008-2016 Intel chips speeds stagnated and then actually got slower, but that slowdown is over since 2016.

Now that P3D is 64 bit, we have only begun to scratch the surface.   

My memory is long term and big picture. We need to be ahead of the hardware curve like we used to be. I intend to be ready like I was in the past. Small thinking people will not be ready, they will just settle for less, complain about performance, and fight against the likes of me who push even further forward...I'm never satisfied, because we should never be satisfied. 

[vortex681 806]

1 hour ago, pracines said:

this is where you likely misunderstand the situation

Thanks for pointing that out! I'm clearly no match for you when it comes to understanding things...

[martin-w 3,235]

8 hours ago, vortex681 said:

Thanks for pointing that out! I'm clearly no match for you when it comes to understanding things...

 

I think the expression I'm looking for is... LOL! 

[G-RFRY 1,710]

No I'm looking to do a new build in 2021 SLI water cooled 2 top end GPUs £5,000 16gb 3200 ram and an over clocked Comet lake CPU 5,1ghz 4TB SSD P3D and 1TB windows drive and a 4TB backup drive should be able to just get built for around £6,500 😁