John_Cillis

Sad Loss in Paris

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An iconic symbol and memory of Paris, destination of Lindburgh, Notre Dame, caught in flames.  I have been inside it twice, and my thoughts are with our members in Europe and abroad who celebrate their heritage with landmarks and humandkind's monumental undertakings of faith, power and pride.

John

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A tragedy. Humans always grieve when treasured history is lost, but this is the digital age, so there is a lot of hope for restoration! Laser scans have been taken of nearly every inch of the church with incredible accuracy, as well as 3D models, VR walkthroughs, color mosaics......

There is probably more data for accurate restoration after such a loss than at any other time in history.

There is no way the French are not up to the task.

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4 hours ago, HiFlyer said:

A tragedy. Humans always grieve when treasured history is lost, but this is the digital age, so there is a lot of hope for restoration! Laser scans have been taken of nearly every inch of the church with incredible accuracy, as well as 3D models, VR walkthroughs, color mosaics......

There is probably more data for accurate restoration after such a loss than at any other time in history.

There is no way the French are not up to the task.

In 1993 the Luzern Chapel bridge also suffered a tragic fire, I had gone across it many times.  Talk about rebuilding it ran into estimates of several years but it was rebuilt within a year and as time has weathered it it will be rebuilt.  Many monuments are not fully the original, as time goes on they have to be partially or completely rebuilt bit by bit.  Still it is hard on not only those who live in Paris, but those who know the city.  Yet tragedy has a way of bringing people together and Paris has always been not just a French city, but a world city.

John

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Medieval times relived in all it's drama is what springs to mind when you see all those pictures.
It almost feels like a sign of the times somehow.

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I've been lucky enough to have been there twice. Most of the artifacts have been safely stored, but the stained glass and steeple have been lost.

Hopefully, they can recreate these again.

 

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Although I know this is not the screenshots forum I wanted to take a moment to share a small set of pictures I took in May of 2017, on May 27th of that year on a day trip I took thru Paris.  I am sure this was one of the sites Charles Lindburgh must visited in 1927 when he landed there 34 years to the day before I was born.

John

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I believe this is a tragedy of the human spirit, especially in today's world: O tempora! O mores!

But I also think it will be restored as close to the way it once looked.  

The cause:  As in many past buildings on fire undergoing restoration or repairs, probably one or more careless workers. Yes, an accident.

 

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Posted (edited)

That and this time of year it can be very dry in Europe, between the spring and summer rain.  The day I took the above pictures it had just rained when I was at the Eiffel tower, I was fortunate enough to enjoy the view from the deck second to the top before the brief showers moved thru, in '84 I went to the very top, I can recommend both levels and one can walk down from the level I was on in 2017 for interesting views of the Eiffel Tower's iron work.  The day I took the above pictures it was quite warm and humid, ironically the next day when I was in Bordeaux the cool weather returned, and the following day when I overnighted in Lourdes it rained steadily and I had to buy an umbrella I forgot to pack for my month long trip.  Lourdes was the last time it rained during the entire rest of my month long tour, although when I went to the Eagle's Nest some weeks later I was again unprepared, leaving my jacket at home figuring I would not need it in the summer.  It was quite cold atop the Eagle's Nest but a good thing, because the line to get back to my tour on their sole elevator was very long, I just managed to make it to catch my tour group back down to Salzburg then on to Munich that day.

I am glad I have the pictures I took above, I did not take many due to low batteries which I replaced after I left when I went to get a couple of sodas being quite thirsty.  One thing Paris can count on is the interior is well documented, and can be restored as it was.  Many interior parts of important sites in Europe have been thru restoration, such as cleaning from the air pollution and also human traffic and noise, which can disturb precious artwork.  In the Sistine chapel later on my tour at St. Peters, we were told to keep our voices down as even the exhalation of carbon dioxide can damage artwork.  In '77 I saw the Last Supper in Milan before its painstaking restoration, it was quite dark and obscure back then and did not show up even in the photograph I tried to take, it was just too dark at the time.

The following day I took these pictures of Notre Dame, I visited the beautiful Chartres Cathedral, I was also awestruck at what I saw, it is also very much like the Notre Dame.  I was also in Assisi and saw the St. Francis' cathedral, damaged in an earthquake there some years ago and sadly with some lives lost, again it was painstakingly restored and although pictures were forbidden inside I got a great guide for a few Euros on the cathedral, both lower and upper, and the town itself.  I stayed overnight in the more modern Assisi town in the valley and prior to going to Assisi my tour guide took us to a WWII memorial at Monte Cassino.

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/09/27/world/a-fatal-quake-shatters-fresco-in-assisi-shrine.html

John

Edited by John_Cillis

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Wildblue said:


Medieval times relived in all it's drama is what springs to mind when you see all those pictures.
It almost feels like a sign of the times somehow.

What do you mean exactly by that?  Sometimes these things are not deliberately caused, suggesting it is a sign of the times suggests it was, fires happen.  I am from the Napa Valley which had its recent tragic fires caused by wind.  However we had sadly less damaging fires in '81 caused by arson which happens sometimes too.  The Chapel bridge fire I mentioned in Luzern Switzerland back in '93 was suspected arson or accidentally caused.  I actually learned about that fire when I was in Cincinnati at an airport, I met a young man from Switzerland and we shared drinks while I was waiting for a connecting flight somewhere, cannot recall.   He told me what happened and he told me estimates were that it would take years to restore, but they had it restored much faster than that.  In Luzern there is a second wooden bridge further down the Reuss, across from a hotel I stayed at twice, that is in its original shape, with paintings similar to the restored ones on the Chapel bridge.  It is called the Spreuer Bridge.

John

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapellbrücke

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spreuer_Bridge

Edited by John_Cillis

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3 hours ago, John_Cillis said:

What do you mean exactly by that?  Sometimes these things are not deliberately caused, suggesting it is a sign of the times suggests it was, fires happen. 

He means it is always a possibility in this day and age.  I'd say we will know more about the cause of the fire in the coming days / weeks.  

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9 hours ago, Jude Bradley said:

I've been lucky enough to have been there twice. Most of the artifacts have been safely stored, but the stained glass and steeple have been lost.

Hopefully, they can recreate these again.

 

Actually, the Rose window and many others did survive. Even more miraculously the candles at the altar didn't even melt!

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, John_Cillis said:

What do you mean exactly by that?  Sometimes these things are not deliberately caused, suggesting it is a sign of the times suggests it was, fires happen.  I am from the Napa Valley which had its recent tragic fires caused by wind.  However we had sadly less damaging fires in '81 caused by arson which happens sometimes too.  The Chapel bridge fire I mentioned in Luzern Switzerland back in '93 was suspected arson or accidentally caused.  I actually learned about that fire when I was in Cincinnati at an airport, I met a young man from Switzerland and we shared drinks while I was waiting for a connecting flight somewhere, cannot recall.   He told me what happened and he told me estimates were that it would take years to restore, but they had it restored much faster than that.  In Luzern there is a second wooden bridge further down the Reuss, across from a hotel I stayed at twice, that is in its original shape, with paintings similar to the restored ones on the Chapel bridge.  It is called the Spreuer Bridge.

John

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapellbrücke

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spreuer_Bridge

No no, i didn't even think about whether this was deliberate or not.

"Medieval times relived in all it's drama".
I was thinking about some old paintings from centuries back, some of them showing blazing fires of churches and people fleeing and crying in the streets, just as we now saw in Paris.

And with sign of the times i meant that the last 10 years or so there seems to be a tension in the air around the whole world, the world is changing, changing fast, and not for the better imho. And lately we get a lot of feedback from mother nature how we abused this planet, think of climatechange, plastic in the oceans, our hunting of elephants for ivory etc. etc. To me the burning of this ancient cathedral and especially the pictures showing it, feels almost like some sort of a sign in a very broad sense, a sign of disasters starting to happen. I hope not, but i can't deny what i feel.

Edited by Wildblue
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This is a historical tragedy. Please keep your comments related to this. We will not allow discussions that include religion or like references as we have a world wide membership so respect everyone. 

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Fr. Bill is correct. The wood and lead roof burned, but the stone ceiling under that kept the fire from destroying the rest of the building. The ceiling failed in two places, but for the most part little else was destroyed. Kudos to the original builders who lived in a time when fire was more of a real danger than now (?) 

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How does one leave Avsim?  For one I am just fed up, being attacked as a Christian, from religious comments Avsim does allow from "chosen ones"  I do not like posts with innuendo, yet the Mods have revealed a more narcissistic agenda....

John

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As sad as it may be I have to say I am surprised with the world wide reactions... Within no time a few wealthy guys coughed up hundreds of millions. Where were they (for instance) after the cyclone Idai destroyed Mozambique? A building can be rebuild, lost lives can't. One single life is worth more than 1000 buildings imho. Leaders of the world are talking (well, tweeting...) about the Notre Dame fire as if it is the worst tragedy in years. When reading the tweets I sometimes had the idea I was reading about a terrorist attack that cost a 100 lives... Seriously, the Notre Dame is just a building made of stone and wood. And yes, I visited the cathedral too too but that doesn't change my opinion on this.

My thoughts are with every live lost in vain all over the word, not with this building. 

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11 hours ago, John_Cillis said:

How does one leave Avsim?  For one I am just fed up, being attacked as a Christian, from religious comments Avsim does allow from "chosen ones"  I do not like posts with innuendo, yet the Mods have revealed a more narcissistic agenda....

John

Av-SIN Retired

if  you want  to leave  hit the  report   on  your  post  and  say  you  want  to be  deleted  from  avism or  just  just  don't   visit

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It really is such a shame. That building has stood for 850 years, and all of a sudden it has been reduced to rubble by a fire. My thoughts are with those of Paris.

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12 hours ago, John_Cillis said:

How does one leave Avsim?  For one I am just fed up, being attacked as a Christian, from religious comments Avsim does allow from "chosen ones"  I do not like posts with innuendo, yet the Mods have revealed a more narcissistic agenda....

John

Av-SIN Retired

Yet Fr Bill hasn't taken offence.  Somewhat of an overreaction - not everyone reacts to religion in the same way which is why it is best to avoid it here.

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1 hour ago, ErichB said:

Yet Fr Bill hasn't taken offence.  Somewhat of an overreaction - not everyone reacts to religion in the same way which is why it is best to avoid it here.

Agreed, I can see both sides here.

On one hand, I'm with J Van E on lives being important, and those wealthy donors pledging 100's of millions of euros to rebuild a cathedral.   On the other hand, Im not religious at all, but you also can't deny the building's cultural heritage and contribution to French and European life.  It is the point from which all distances to other cities in France are measured so I understand...  So, yes its only wood and stone, but it is an icon, and as such it can have an impact out of all proportion to the sum of its physical parts.

Heaven forbid, there is enough wealth in the world to reconstruct Notre Dame and relieve disasters and poverty around the world several times over (and most of it in a very small number of hands).  Let's not get bogged down in arguing between the two eh?

Cheers K

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I just saw a news flash that over 1 Billion dollars (or Euros) has been raised to restore the Cathedral to its former glory.

Whether it is a cathedral, a statue of antiquity, the pyramids, or any of the ancient Greek ruins, they are all important to the history of the world and all efforts should be done to protect, repair, or restore them.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, kevinfirth said:

On one hand, I'm with J Van E on lives being important, and those wealthy donors pledging 100's of millions of euros to rebuild a cathedral.   On the other hand, Im not religious at all, but you also can't deny the building's cultural heritage and contribution to French and European life

Yup completely agree. Cultural iconic buildings, religious or not,  are part of our cultural frame  of reference and should be preserved.  In this case, it is so iconic, in both cultural and religious significance, that it has drawn an overwhelmingly massive response.  I'm not a religious person but I have no issue with people's emotive reactions to its fate

Edited by ErichB
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17 hours ago, WilliamS said:

That building has stood for 850 years, and all of a sudden it has been reduced to rubble by a fire. 

I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s been reduced to rubble, it’s still standing and the photos taken on the inside don’t look as bad as I expected considering how bad it looked when it was on fire.

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1 hour ago, cmpbellsjc said:

I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s been reduced to rubble, it’s still standing and the photos taken on the inside don’t look as bad as I expected considering how bad it looked when it was on fire.

I would totally agree, and yet Emanuel Macron has (I think) said that it will be 40 years until it's fully restored...

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