**Rant - Join in if you want **

[Mace 1,901]

LAdamason: EFIS!!!! I remember the "Yellow Brick Road" in FS.In general I understand the OP's comments. I too have my concerns, but I also feel like it's way too early...Besides, if FSX has every capability (read=expandability) FS9 has, and I think it has been said that it will, plus the new eye candy, then well, that's pretty good by me.Rhett

[LAdamson 240]

>I fly for hobby in real life! Why do I fly? View from Above>and Scenery! ! So when people dismiss eye candy in FS, I>cringe! Don't get me wrong, I 'd love more procedural>fidelity, but please be aware that visual imporvements are>very important to many people. Otherwise why are there so many>add-on packages for improving landscape, mesh etc? Why are>there airplanes with such detailed extrior modeling?I took up real flight for scenery too! I live around some very panaramic mountain and desert country of the Mountain West. Wouldn't give up this beautiful scenery for IMC conditions! :D In fact, when the term "eye candy" is used in a derogatory fashion, as though it's not important in the scheme of flight............I want to simply throw up! :-hahL.Adamson

[turner112 52]

If I remember correctly, unfortunately, in 2004 the rectangles were drawn with the active visibility affecting them, so they faded out... oops!I agree to a large extent - while the game may have simple hoops, eventually, this type of graphic overlay will become common.Andrew

[Guest]

Thats was funny but your the one always complaining about the visibility problem - and thats actually getting fixed!"I already noticed the improved clouds and haze effects. I was told that the overcast cloud problem in the current version will be addressed. It may not get resolved totally, but improvements should be significant. Same story for the current visibility transition issues. We should get a more gradual change between varying values of prevailing visibility."http://www.simhq.com/_all/all_020a.htmlDid you know there will also be cloud shadows!

[Guest jordanmoore]

Their "arcade-like" examples of new functionality are just indications of new possibilities within the platform that we will be taking advantage of for the next 2-3 years to create an endless assortment of creative new add-on packages to suit every type of flight-simmer's interest.They show hoops to be flown through, and I see hurricane victims needing to be picked up by fleets of helicopters.They mention flour bags being dropped on targets, and I envision forest fires needing to be hit with a load of water as part of an on-going campaign to reign in the destructive force of mother nature.They show a burning oil rig, with the crew in need of rescue...and well I see....hhhmmmm.... a burning oil rig with the crew in need of rescue.I also don't see any of these activities as needing to detract from realistic flight operations. In fact, it would seem we will have more opportunity to "simulate in detail" some of these flight operations more accurately than ever, instead of presenting them as "arcade-like" entertainment as is often the case in other software titles.Like most, I want a lot of things from this sim. However, I had one item on my wish-list that I have been waiting on for so long. Better interaction between the aircraft and the environment. Something that the helicopter and general-aviation/bush-flight communities will reap untold benefits from. It seems they might have finally addressed this issue, knowing that it is just as useful for long-time users of the product as it is attractive to new-comers.Jordan Moore

[Guest christian]

Reggie, sorry to say, but the 'kids fund game development' statement is rubbish. Nothing personal, reading through the post I just couldn't resist replying to this, as other people seem to have the same opinion.I know it's a quite prevalent opinion that it's the kids that drive the whole entertainment business (music, movies, and expecially video games). This is a quite accepted fact and typically entertainment management/producers believe in it and hence concentrate on this target group. Nevertheless, if one looks closer at this statement, it completely folds down. Just ask yourself one question: "where do the kids get all the money from to pay for all their goodies?" The reality is (as studies over the last years have shown), that in fact it's males between 20 and 35 who have the largest disposable income to spend on fancy entertainment goodies and quite happily do so - and it is exactly this group which basically fund the whole business. Maybe kids have more time to play games/watch movies, etc, but this group doesn't have that much money to spend, there is a much higher percentage of using pirated goods (swapped in the schooldyard). Recent sales numbers also reflect this: music sales down, cinema visits down, video game sales down - all because producers and management just don't get it - yet. (As an example, the last music CD I bought was maybe 5 years ago - I'm just not into Brittney Spears and co. Most money probably went into building up a DVD collection of movies me and my wife enjoy). Over the last year or so, I can feel a change in attitude where people start to get this and also become aware of the baby boomer retiring crowd which will have a significant disposable income (yet no one really tailors entertainment titles for this group). Another interesting development is the rising Indie Gaming scene which targets non casual gamers (above thirties and including women!), who don't have time to get involved in the too complex and time consuming games of today (who seriously has time to play a MMO...)After all this waffle let's get back to MSFS. Kiddo's pay the development costs? I don't think so. Just look at the profile in this forum. Probably, the majority is over 30, and it's very likely this translates into the sales profile also. I sincerly doubt that it's mostly young kids buying MSFS. MSFS is one of the most successful franchises and can draw onto a very solid customer base that spans all ages (I'd argue that MSFS is a bit of a phenomenon as it probably draws a large number of retired people).Ok, after almost hijacking this thread, I'd return to the main question raised. Why does MSFS need gamey elements like missions, fancy graphics, etc? Well, after all the large majority of buyers is still male - and as they say there is a young kid in all of us (certainly me). I'm alway looking forward to entertainment in a title and MSFS is no exception. Having the possibilty to fly fun missions is a great idea. I always love better graphics. Does that mean MSFS will become a game with unlockable planes, etc? I don't think so. I believe the FS staff like me like to be entertained and probably enjoy the missions as much as most people will. I'm quite certain, the FS team doesn't develop for kiddos, but most of the features is something that are important to the team - and this is mostly what makes a title successful.Yes, I also have pet wishes which I know won't make it into FSX - there is just too much to add to get a perfect sim experience. I'm just mature enough to realise this is just a game/sim and I know whatever the FS team will develop will keep me entertained until the next version comes out. If you want a number crunshing sim with all entertainment gimicks removed stop using MSFS and support X-plane. And if you say the graphics in x-plane isn't good enough you'd be a hypocrate wouldn't you ;)Cheers,Christian

[Guest pixelpoke_from_MSFT]

>I think it does look like they have arcade plans for FSX. >What true simmer wants to fly a jet through hoops?? I can see>the Red Bull Air Race bit as being okay, after all it's still>real. Even maybe the rescue from the oil rig. But I don't want>to do stupid things like the hoops in a corporate jet, or>sandbagging targets unless it's in a military jet, flying for>an airforce. Some things sound great, but I just can't get>this little nagging feeling out of my gut that MS are about to>abandon us in favour of the Arcade types who play XBoxes. PC>in December Xbox .... ? Maybe 6 months later?A few things to point out...Flour bombing targets with the ultralight is actually really fun, and I might point out, something that happens in the real world, with real aircraft:http://www.ninety-nines.org/flying.htmlhttp://www.aya.org/aya2005/dailycoverage/i.../flour-bombing/http://www.valdezalaska.org/events/eventsR...BombingSTOL.pdfAs for hoops in a corporate jet... yep. Not real. Point is though, that it takes real piloting skill to do well (against a timer, or without crashing), and like almost all the other missions, can *help* build real world skills for people who don't already have them. The better you are a pilot, the better you'll be able to accomplish the missions. Some missions are likely to be below the average Avsim, SImflight, Flightsim.com, etc user. That's intentional, as they are designed for more novice users.All we're trying to do is widen the spectrum of people who can enjoy Flight Sim. The hope is that will allow us to expnd our audience, which should translate into sales numbers that will let us continue to make Flight Sim.We're not in anyway changing the sandbox (what we call the present unstructured experience) nature of the sim that we've had for the past 25 years or so. Cheers,Jason

[Guest Id Rather Be Flying]

>>I fly for hobby in real life! Why do I fly? View from>Above>>and Scenery! ! So when people dismiss eye candy in FS, I>>cringe! Don't get me wrong, I 'd love more procedural>>fidelity, but please be aware that visual imporvements are>>very important to many people. Otherwise why are there so>many>>add-on packages for improving landscape, mesh etc? Why are>>there airplanes with such detailed extrior modeling?>>I took up real flight for scenery too! I live around some very>panaramic mountain and desert country of the Mountain West.>Wouldn't give up this beautiful scenery for IMC conditions! :D>>>In fact, when the term "eye candy" is used in a derogatory>fashion, as though it's not important in the scheme of>flight............>>I want to simply throw up! :-hah>>L.Adamson Add me to this group as well. Go get yourself an intro flight at your local FBO and ask to fly over your house and you'll want all the eye candy you can get when you don't have the finances to fly for real! OF COURSE everything else is important (like REALLY being able to stall & spin properly for starters) but eye candy is the living/breathing world with which flight as we know it would be impossible. Carmine http://forums.avsim.net/images/wave.gifhttp://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7118/phoenixtp8mg.jpg

[Guest davidvoogd]

I really don't understand all the aprehension over the new missions. I've been a "flightsimmer" since FS98, have oodles of hours in the sim, and have 40 hours towards a real world private pilots license. Does that mean I can't just screw around and have fun once in a while? I hardly think so! I'm going to make a point of trying out all the missions, just for the fun of it. The redbull air races should be a blast, especially if we can fly against each other online, or even just competing to post the best time on these forums.The missions won't have to be "arcade like" either. I'm sure there will be some fairly realistic missions out of the box, and just wait until we get to post our own user made missions on Avsim. With thermal (and hopefully ridge lift and mountain wave) gliding being introduced we can make some great - and realistic - glider tasks, touring our local area or showing off some fantastic scenery (anyone who has used the Condor gliding sim or gone gliding in real life will know just how much fun gliding can really be).Virtual airlines will be able to make missions for their members to fly, even some very challenging ones in a form of a contest to see who can complete it. Its possible the missions could be used to create custom training scenerios, flying a complicated IFR approach right down to minimums or trying to land a small cessna on a small mountain valley airstrip with a tailwind in turbulance.And in the end, its quite obvious there is no requirement to do these missions, and nothing is being taken away to be replaced with missions. These missions will open up Flight Simulator to a wider audience, hopefully bringing more people into our communities, which will expand the addon industry - both freeware and payware, and give us even more to play with. I can't see how that could be a bad thing.If anything we should congratulate the Flight Simulator team for adding even another great element to our beloved program, while still giving us the freedom to do whatever we want.

[Guest tdragger]

<,Another thing - Why on earth would they showcase a Pre-Beta ( Alpha ?? ) build of FSX at E3 - now that makes no sense. >>We asked the organizers to delay the show until we were further along in our development but they chose to go ahead with it in May anyway. Go figure.

[Guest tdragger]

<>That's not quite correct. E3 is not a public event and it is designed primarily for industry, retail and press. If "kids" were there, it's probably because they have a influential blog. ;)

[Guest tdragger]

Another point to consider...Number of missions we've announced being in the product: over 50Number of missions shown at E3 and being used to draw conclusions: 4Hmmmm...

[slashed2 53]

That's it exactly, well said! Missions won't just be fly through a hoop or drop a sandbag, though that does sound like fun, god forbid, but hopefully will have the complexity enough for VA's and programmers to create new add-ons or even allow the user to create whatever they want. A new dimension to the sand box if you will. Not everyone wants to fly a 747 for 7 hours by the book. FS should be both a serious simulator for when I want to do serious flying but should allow for those times when you just want to fly and have fun. I have a full time job, I don't want to work in FS, (unless someone could create a career mode ;) ).Ian.

[turner112 52]

"I really don't understand all the aprehension over the new missions."I think the negative reaction to missions is being blown out of proportion...The two main arguments are1) There should be time spent honing the basics of flight - things such as flight model, spins, stalls, slips, smoother gauges, better ATC... time spent on missions and good looks detracts from the performance of the basics.2) Orienting the game to attract a broader audience means, necessarily, that the XBOX tier of gamers have, by numbers, driven the game to be more game-like and less sim-like. This means the game is progressing toward an "arcade model" and away from an accurate simulation.Let's then consider that FS has progressed to its current state on a foundation of existing users, who largely are not XBOX gamers, though many users may be. I'm not thinking that MS would willingly dump a large portion of the user base in gambling that a new marketing campaign, combined with a very new shift in gameplay, would attract not only enough fresh blood to disregard the many dedicated users that have helped build the product, but also all the third party content creators.No, if the product gets to the point where even 50% of the users are "hardcore console gamers", it wouldn't be enough to make a decision to move away from simulation.Maybe, one day, and even one day soon, we'll see an XBOX-only version - not a Flight Simulator Lite, but rather something more akin to Pilotwings 64 in which (for those not familiar) fun challenges take place in a limited number of environments.But as long as MS remains dedicated to a serious flight sim, the exiting capabilities added in the form of Missions - and the ability to create Missions* - will create, I believe, a new era in Flight Simulator.*As long as the average user can easily use the mission creation tools.---Andrew

[slashed2 53]

Hope this alleviates some fears of missions:http://blogs.technet.com/p-12c_pilot/default.aspxBranching missions....think of the possibilites.Ian.