**Rant - Join in if you want **

[=Hollywood= 0]

>>>>I always respected FSIM to be a tool that can enhance our skills in precision and procedural flying - no matter what the environment throws at us, and therefore I am disappointed to see that most of the important aspects of the SIM (at least what we regard as important) SEEM to have been neglected at the cost of making it more enjoyabe and appealing to NON-hardcore simmers.<<Flour bombing targets with the ultralight is actually really>fun, and I might point out, something that happens in the real>world, with real aircraft:>>Point is though, that it takes real piloting skill to do well>(against a timer, or without crashing), and like almost all>the other missions, can *help* build real world skills for>people who don't already have them. The better you are a>pilot, the better you'll be able to accomplish the missions.What Jason says is true... It does help refine real world skills. Pilots IRL have fun too...Having grown up as the son of a major airline flight crew member, I have to say I know of many stories about what pilots and crew would get up to in the real simulators... Try taking a 747 or 767 under the Sydney Harbor Bridge!!! I won't mention which airline it was, but real world pilots have fun too! Enough to fly a big boeing underneath a landmark bridge in a major capital city....Any real world pilot will tell you, flying is about having fun... The proceedural stuff just helps us keep a roof over our heads and keeps us alive so we can support our families!

[frankla 44]

#### those people at E3!!! NOT! We will take alpha, pre alpha and Beta. Send us all!

[Guest lemonadedrinker]

Hi,This seems to say it all about the OP's points....>>>Hope this alleviates some fears of missions:http://blogs.technet.com/p-12c_pilot/default.aspxBranching missions....think of the possibilites.Ian.It's a cracking blog and well worth a read .Well found!@ iboweruk When I was a kid I used to watch Gannets divebombing off the Lilstock (Somerset) beach. I guess they were dummy bombs of some kind, but they made a big splash when they missed the target square floating in the sea and I imagine the pilots got a big yeehaa if they hit it! Andy.

[Guest Fjorko]

Fair comments all.In any event I will end up buying it at launch anyway, so...I was in a bad mood yesterday, and in hindsight, my post does seem to sound a bit petty, so appologies for my attitude. I guess I just have very high expectations .I will stop my moaning and groaning now ! ;-) I still love you FSIM !:-halo

[Guest sidideas]

After reading the blog, i have a few comments of my own..."I would expect that pilots will fly a mission and once they are successful, never fly it again"Maybe in that context, for future FS products they take an 'open' approach to code how one solves/finishes a mission. By this i mean, there is more than one way to accomplish a goal/mission similar to games like FarCry.Just my 50 cents...;-)

[Guest jboweruk]

>Thats was funny but your the one always complaining about the>visibility problem - and thats actually getting fixed!>>"I already noticed the improved clouds and haze effects. I was>told that the overcast cloud problem in the current version>will be addressed. It may not get resolved totally, but>improvements should be significant. Same story for the current>visibility transition issues. We should get a more gradual>change between varying values of prevailing visibility.">>http://www.simhq.com/_all/all_020a.html>>Did you know there will also be cloud shadows! >Now THAT I was hoping to hear, cloud shadows, I wonder if you will get streaks of sunlight through the gaps like IRL. And does this also mean no more getting blinded by a sun you cannot even see?

[Guest jboweruk]

I know where you're coming from Andy, and surely if that's what we want to do is bomb things then there are military sims out there, if we are gonna have that then why can't FS and CFS just merge and allow us to create our own scenarios, ranging from bombing competitions to full scale World War between countries we choose?That was not what anyone wanted when the idea was raised, but ppl do seem to want to drop flourbags on targets with a small plane. What's the difference. I don't mind as I say realistic stuff, the Oil rig mission sounds great for helo wannabe's, and the flour bombing would IMHO be better with dummy bombs and military aircraft? Even Red Bull, would be great against AI pilots or online against real ppl, heck I've seen the RB AR and it's great fun to watch, but for that surely we need the physics engine that will properly allow knife edges and stuff.All I'm saying is that I'd rather they put more effort into realistic ATC and weather effects, and AI aircraft that don't run your butt off on approach as they are wont to do now.I wouldn't have minded so much a career mode, or even a Frontier style carry this to here from here and sell it approach. perhaps even something like King of the Road but with planes. You know building an airline from 1 plane to an International corporation, would that not be a better mission based scenario?Sorry for being so long-winded, but right now with FSPax, FSHotseat and soon RC4 I will pretty much have that, of course I want to have the next version, but like many here want to know we are not being forgotten for want of a better word, to appease the XBox crowd.

[slashed2 53]

I'd also like some form of career mode, but I think the logic of the mission editor or mission process may allow for easier development from a 3rd party perspective to effectively implement such a possibility.Since mission creation allows for branching logic there could be different outcomes depending on how one flys the mission for example, if you crash, do this, if you are late do this etc, allowing for 3rd party software to have a consequence for how you fly the mission. Perfect for evaluating a flight and giving a performance rating. From the sounds of it also a maintenance penalty could be implemented. Depending on how flexible the language used and the imagination of a 3rd party developer, we could have career mode, maybe FSCareer or FSWar etc. Who knows, but the possibilities sound endless I hope.Ian.

[Guest Ken_Salter]

True, but really did you expect a different reaction? :-lol

[RFields5421 1]

Just look at the profile in this forumThat's my basic point - the profile of this forum, or forums such as Flightsim.com, FSGateway.com, projectai.com and more does not represent the majority of the target audience.30,625 registered members of the Avsim forum is a large market group - but the FS sales target for the release needs to be at least 5-10 times that size, or more.While some will be upset at a $50 price tag - MS will not net $50 from each sale. $5 would be great.FS is product which carries a seven figure development budget, annually.Now the profile of these forums and similar sites does represent the target audience of add-on developers.But as tdragger has hinted, and pixelpoke says - the basic open play, free form mission which we all use to create our own flights will remain open and the main part of FS.It's not as "flashy and exciting" to a new audience, or really suited to kiosk type displays - but it's the hardcore guts of the game.

[RFields5421 1]

One thing on the missions, specifically the Red Bull mission.Contact MM on these forums and get him to show you a "challenge" for the last MSFS Around the World Race - which didn't make the final cut.It will take more than the two minutes for the kiosk version of the Red Bull mission but is probably as challenging - it doesn't have any hoops or rings - just granite.FS2004 has some really neat "missions" already - some of the classic flights are beyond amazing.

[jvile 1]

>I always respected FSIM to be a tool that can enhance our skills in>precision and procedural flying - no matter what the environment>throws at us, and therefore I am disappointed to see that most of>the important aspects of the SIM (at least what we regard as>important) SEEM to have been neglected at the cost of making it more>enjoyabe and appealing to NON-hardcore simmers.I have not joined in and posted on any of the issues that relate to the FSX Simulator but take time to read what is being said in various forums. My time is spent working with XML code to keep FS9's default airport approach data up to date. Re-opening airports that users want to fly out of and changing the behavior of AI Traffic based on the SDK. What I have to say is not speculation but experience that dates back 20 years ago working with and flying computer flight simulators.In the mid 80's we flew Helicopter Simulators on Atari home computer systems. Tank Simulators, Commercial Flight Simulators, Combat Jet Simulators on the Amiga 500 and 2000 computers which were a type of Icon Windows based, multi tasking machine in their time.Do you know what all these Simulators had in common with each other?They had Missions.Do you know who the audience was that wanted us older males to buy these simulators for these computers? Our 12 year old KIDS !!!!When I wanted to practice an approach to a unfamiliar airport (job related) I had to get my Son and all the neighborhood boys off the Amiga 500 and 2000. They even tied together the serial ports between the 500 and 2000 so they could fly the Missions together and battle one another in the Combat and Tank Simulators.What do I remember most about these early Flight Simulators? The Missions !!!!The very first mission in the Commercial Plane FS was to depart LAX, climb to 16 thousand ft. and turn South down the coast for the arrival into KSAN all under the watchful eye of ATC. You were scored on your ability to fly the flight properly from the point of contacting Clearence to rotation for takeoff. Initial climb out and maintaining final altitude assignments and headings were also scored. On Approach, ATC vectored you to the 30 degree offset vectors for final ILS runway 9 for landing and proper roll out. If you scored 80 or above in 3 catagories you could advance to the next mission. Each mission became more complex and there were 99 total missions.I applaude the FSX team for continuing the development of the simulator which also impacts the lives of the younger generations. It does not matter if some see it as a type arcade game (flying through hoops, etc) or a tool for practicing complex approaches with the use of current plates. What does matter is how these programs help mold youngsters that might want to become future pilots or pilots that use it has a tool for the enhancement of safty in their everyday job.For the record, my kids at a early age started out on Flight Simualtors in the mid 80's because they saw it as a challenging game with missions.Today both my oldest Son and my Daughter are Pilots and fly for the two largest major based Commercial Carriers in Atlanta.Thank You Microsoft for continuing to appeal to the NON-hardcore simmers (my grand Children) so they also might have the same opportunities their parents had at the age of 12.

[LAdamson 240]

>Thank You Microsoft for continuing to appeal to the>NON-hardcore simmers (my grand Children) so they also might>have the same opportunities their parents had at the age of>12. he,he.......Maybe I've had too much Gin, but "hardcore simmer" is starting to sound about as dumb as "eye candy"... :-hah

[Guest Jimbofly]

Sounds like you're a little afraid of challenging your flying skills? The beauty of a flight simulator is that you CAN do things that you can't in real life. As long as the flight and engine dynamics are well modelled, what's it matter anyway?I'm sick of people wanting a dry simulator that simply simulates procedural flight. It's boring. I spend a lot of time flying hellicopters (at 100% realism, and I'm at the point where I can fly anywhere and do anything in one), aerobatic aircraft, and jet fighters, because I know that my flying skills are being well crafted as a result.I'm looking forward to pylon and hoop challenges, as well as procedural and RL challenges. I guess that makes me a more diverse simmer, huh?I understand you might like to just push buttons, but please understand we're not all like that. Some of us actually want some challenges as well.I applaud the ACES team for making FSX a more diverse flight sim.

[MD83 1]

>This is just my opinion - what do you think ?>>I have never used the tutorials in MSFS. Ever. I probably won't use the "hoop" adventures very often, BUT this kind of feature attracts a wider user base. This can only be a good thing, and it should increase the sales of MSFS. The extra sales will equate to a larger budget for future versions..... ;)Stop whining http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/Dar...0/rolleyes2.gif--------------------------------------------------------------------MD83's Dictionary:Dirge: Slow and mournful music e.g. COLDPLAY's musicMaudlin: Effusively or Insincerely emotional e.g. COLDPLAY's musicWhiney: To make a high-pitched, protracted sound, as in pain, fear, supplication, or complaint e.g. COLDPLAY's musicDreary: Boring; dull e.g. COLDPLAY's music