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Guest grapesh

Realistic ATC

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Mike, are you still there? Not that I wan't to see you leave, we have all gotten used to you over time.No, I am not going to complain about the ATC and how it could be more realistic. Just the opposite. Often, I don't immediately follow the controller's instructions. What can I say? I like to wander about and often stray over to look at something interesting. Inevitably, ATC cancels me! Pretty annoying; after all, who is the boss on my computer?It is probably too late for the next version, but would you guys consider a complexity setting for ATC, with a slider something like the following: - "It's a game" -- low setting, you can wander about, climb or descend at will, deviate to your delight, and ATC always picks you up when you are ready. - "As real as it gets" -- normal setting, what we have now with uppity controllers - "737 crowd only" -- high setting, really hard-nosed, arrivals and departures engraved in stone, you can ask for a different flight level, but you won't get it or they give you something you don't want, they change your clearance every 10 minutes forcing you to re-program the FMC, don't bother asking for a different approach unless you are looking for trouble, you get the idea.Evidently, I would keep my slider at the lowest setting, but am willing to bet that many here would max it along with the others!Best regards.Luis

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Guest Dimon1971

I think ATC improvement (at least for AI, not for player procedures) is the main thing that many simmers expects from MS. Anyway who cares about elephants?

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Depends on the type of flying you do-yes I want to see improvements in atc-but I also want to see improvements in all areas...But are not even atc "improvements" in the eye of the beholder? For example I have been flying GA for 16 years-14 ifr-but I have seen more birds/cars in this time than I have ever gotten assigned a sid/star/hold (and in the case of sid/star's the few times atc assigns one before I start the procedure I am either vectored-or the procedure basically says climb out and expect vectors etc.). Therefore, even though this is one of the big atc improvements one sees requested by many, it is not one I would be particularly excited about-perhaps in my case as much as elephants. Which one is going to increase my personal everyday reality more? ...Now if you fly big iron only you would probably feel the other way.I do however usually get assigned a different route clearance from clearance del. on the ground than what I filed -get several changes while enroute to different fixes, sometimes a few alitutde/vector change requests, either on atc's end or mine, a good deal of time fly practice approaches/holds which are requested in a batch from the approach facility, and often request a change of destination/plan directly, and pick up tower enroute/popup clearances. Now these would be the most important improvements....in my relativity. I hope the new atc will have these things...Of course if these were added, there will be just as many upset that the areas of their atc reality were not!Like everything in FS-I am sure most everything will be improved. Will it meet the expectations of every simmer-not at all-as we all use the sim in different ways. I would bet atc will have improvements though-just about every area of the sim is improved in some way in every new version.By the way-just last week I had to wait for a deer to clear the runway at the uncontrolled field I was at. I've actually seen more of them than been assigned sid/star's too..... :-)I am not at all against the addition of sid/stars by the way-or any improvements to the sim in any area(not atc exclusive)-but the idea that MS adding cars/animals somehow takes away from "serious" simming I don't agree with-they can be pretty serious aspects in my flying at least (don't get me started on birds which are a huge factor where I live).http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

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>Depends on the type of flying you do-yes I want to see>improvements in atc-but I also want to see improvements in all>areas...>>>I do however usually get assigned a different route clearance>from clearance del. on the ground than what I filed -get>several changes while enroute to different fixes, sometimes a>few alitutde/vector change requests, either on atc's end or>mine, a good deal of time fly practice approaches/holds which>are requested in a batch from the approach facility, and often>request a change of destination/plan directly, and pick up>tower enroute/popup clearances. Now these would be the most>important improvements....in my relativity.>> I hope the new atc will have these things...Yeah.. Me too. I agree and I hope they would continue working on improving the ATC (AS REAL AS IT GETS).Manny>am not at all against the addition of sid/stars by the way-or any improvements to the sim in any area(not atc exclusive)-but the idea that MS adding cars/animals somehow takes away from "serious" simming I don't agreeAgree with that too. IF thats what one wants.. There are other options for that. On TOP or ELITE flight sims.Manny

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Guest freff

>I think ATC improvement (at least for AI, not for player>procedures) is the main thing that many simmers expects from>MS. Anyway who cares about elephants? It's about selling more units. Their marketing guys already know that the hardcore crowd asking asking for such features are all going to buy the product anyway. In order to sell more units they need more casual gamers to buy the game. So they throw a few crumbs to the hardcore simmer and then load it up with eye candy, xbox controller support, and missions. Thats why we get elephants, reflective paint,improved rivets, etc. Don't get me wrong as one of the hard core crowd I enjoy the eye candy but I'd really like to eliminate the blurries, improve the flight model, overhaul the multiplayer, weather, ai, atc too. As a hardcorer it sounds like I got maybe one or two off that list.I've never purchased x-plane to this point but now I've got my eye on it.

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Are not the missions what will enable us to have truly realistic atc?For instance-a few years ago I was flying practice ils approaches to a class c airport and the controller was obviously a trainee.In front of me was a cessna 172 doing touch and goes-and I was on the ils doing considerably faster in a Debonair.approach: Maintain 3000 and 240 till established on the localizer-cleared ils 27. Traffic on final is a cessna 172.Me: readbacka few minutes later-handoff to tower andtower: cleared to landme:a few seconds later as I am closing in on the traffic ahead of me still 2 miles out."am I still cleared to land?".tower: iritated-"yes we already cleared you to land"Me: "well I have a cessna directly in front of me that seems to be getting bigger and biggertower" oh ##%%-turn immediate right to 360 and climb 3000me: affirmtower a few seconds later: We are sorry and appologize-thanks for your cooperation! me: no problem etc.etc.No way to program something like this in a "default" atc-but "missions"? I can see all kinds of more realistic scenerios-including asking for practice approaches-vectors to holds-surprise conflicting traffic etc....So are missions making it more "gamelike"-or going to add more reality for us hardcore simmers? Does traffic/animals make it more gamelike-or add more reality to those of us that experience this in the real world quite frequently? Sure there will be gamers running down elephants in Africa-then there will be the reality people like me avoiding deer on the runway and birds shortly after takeoff....I see MS as always-making everyone able to achieve in some way their version of reality. Not a bad thing imho.... http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

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>I think ATC improvement (at least for AI, not for player>procedures) is the main thing that many simmers expects from>MS. The main thing? Yes, some probably count on better ATC but clearaly majority of simmers expect enhanced visuals, and this has nothing to do with elephants, by the way.Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/for...argo_hauler.gifhttp://sales.hifisim.com/pub-download/asv6-banner-beta.jpg

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>>I've never purchased x-plane to this point but now I've got my>eye on it.Do purchase X-Plane....I own it; but don't expect it to fill all your requirements either.I'm a real pilot who doesn't get a real kick out of flying aboard real life commercial airliners. I'd much rather be a few thousand feet over the mountains & deserts of the western U.S. than at 30,000+.Sids/Stars & ATC do not interest me as much as back country topographical "eye candy" will. Anyone can simulate Sids & Stars on a home P/C rather than in an airplane. The challange is to create a believable synthetic enviroment ----- landforms, clouds, and weather patterns that mimic the look of real life. Let the third parties add all the "other" needs.Pic: A taste of eye candy..............much preferred over Sids & Stars, IMO :-hah L.Adamson

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The facility described already exists... It's called VFR! If you want to okay about, then cancel all your ATC services and squawk 7000. When you've done playing about, then call the controller and either file an IFR plan or request a VFR service. It's that simple.

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Good Point Geofa.Another opporunity for Add on Vendors... multiple real world emergecy situation and realistic ATC. High Drama over the Podonk Airport.I'd love it.:)Manny

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Guest sclincoln

>squawk 7000.Wouldn't that be 1200?

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The elephant argument would be a re-hash of the bird debacle, but I think you can see that ther are users of fs that are hard-core (what's the definition of that anyway?) that welcome a more dynamic world. I flew to Atlanta the other day on business in a CRJ and up around 30,000 feet I watched the roads below get smaller and smaller, but could still see movement on the roads and just barely could see traffic. It made me realize that irregardless of your preference, adding dynamic reality to the sim is a plus to all who use the sim.I'm a hard-core GA simmer, I love flying in mountains and and low and slow, but I bet there are more than one or two airline pilots who still get a thrill at the scenery they see as they look up from the FMC. It's more than just looking at dials and plotting a path.ATC is important to many VFR or IFR, GA or airliner, but so is a more dynamic world. A bush flight in Africa with a mission to airlift a sick Lion to an animal hospital flying over Giraffes and Elephants, with flocks of birds soaring through the air and landing on a 2000 foot dirt runway is just as thrilling to me as being vectored through heavy IFR conditions into an ILS approach on Runway 17.Ian.

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>but I think you can see that ther are users of fs that are>hard-core (what's the definition of that anyway?) Something that "won't" impress a good looking girl at a bar! :-lol >I'm a hard-core GA simmer, I love flying in mountains and and>low and slow, but I bet there are more than one or two airline>pilots who still get a thrill at the scenery they see as they>look up from the FMC. It's more than just looking at dials>and plotting a path.>Our EAA clubs are filled with many retired military and commercial pilots who now fly for the "scenery". Even some still active ones.L.Adamson

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:-lol :-lol :-lol that's a good one, Larry!I'd prefer to be a hard-core barman.That's "as real as it gets":-hah Rodger

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Not if you live in the United Kingdom... 7000 Mode C for all aircraft who are not receiving a radar service. Dunno if that is ICAO or not, USA seems to deviate heavily from ICAO standards where as the UK (and rest of the world for that matter) less so.Actually this is the biggest annoyance of MSFS ATC for me... it's based on FAA rather than ICAO standards. Ah well...

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"Something that "won't" impress a good looking girl at a bar! :-lol" That made my morning. Nothing more true. Ian.

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Guest sclincoln

Learn something new every day.

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Guest tcable

For everyone it's different- I earned my PPASEL at ERAU where every flight was flown with a DP or star (even as a student pilot) in KDAB. Granted, they were VFR landmarks, but ERAU was like flying the line- I still have my maneuvers guide in storage. It was an amazing experience.Fling here in Boston, it's far different. Your general VFR stuff, but Riddle trained me VERY well with excellent habits, even if I do not fly professionally.

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I understand that the FS team has to make ATC fairly generic, it can't give every single airprot out of over 22,000 that are in FS special treatment. However asking MSFS to maybe incorporate ICAO and FAA standards I don't think is asking that much - I would guess that over 50% of the world is operating closer the former. We in the UK and most of Western Europe for that matter are - and that is one of the largest markets for FS.VFR can be awkward to implement accurately as it varies so much from airport to airport and country to country. However IFR is less so and perhaps the FS ATC could even incorporate SIDs/STARs - if PMDG and PSS can implement these in to their addons I don't see why FS can't implement a database for ATC and addons to use, perhaps FS could even use this for default GPS/Flight Computer systems. I know Jeppesen could provide this sort of data and the MSFS team already use some of their data - why not SIDs/STARs too.

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Do you guys think adding the program Radar Contact would be the answer to your dreams for FSX?RH

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I think the situation-at least what I am familiar with-is the Sid's/Star's are more likely when operating out of, or very near class "B" airspace-which again will apply more often to a heavy iron driver than a GA one. My point above I guess was more that when people say they want atc to be more realistic-it again is dependent on the type flying and where you do it, and-and the wishes could be very different and relative as to what makes more realistic to each user.The first 12 years of my GA ifr flying-I operated out of a class C airport-and crossed the United States in all directions 3 times(except the very NE). In that time I only got 2 Sid's and no Star's-one Sid going out of Denver, Centenial which stated to climb and fly radar vectors, and one going out of KSee (outside San Diego)which was to fly a radial. On that one-right after takeoff and contacting approach I was immediately given vectors and did not have to follow the procedure.In the past 2 years I now operate out of kPtk-an airport that borders the Detroit Class B airspace. I now always have to file ptk 8 departure, runway heading, radar vectors. (Ptk 8 departure basically says to file to a nearby fix).As soon as I takeoff-I am handed to Detroit departure-who almost most always either gives me a vector, or sends me to a fix-invariably a different one that I didn't file (due to traffic patterns in the B airspace).Coming in now-I am about 25% of the time given a star (vectors otherwise)-but again before I even get near the procedure the radar vectors take over-I still haven't flown one yet.Again-not against fs having these added-especially for class B operations-but I'd sure like to see changes of clearances-both on the ground and in the air, change of fixes to fly to and changes of altitude,deviations for weather, ability to request multiple approaches/holds, being sent to holds due to weather or traffic, and lots of other little things that at least in my flying are more likely to occur.Will fsx have either sids/stars , my wishes, or some improvements in both?Improvements? I would expect so.Everything everyone wants-noWill everyone be happy-no-always! :-)http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

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