HighBypass

Political liveries in the library....

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We don't do politics here on AVSIM, but we do have opinions and some of us, if not most of us appreciate accuracy when selecting the planes in our virtual hangars.

I have noticed that some Lufthansa A320 liveries have been uploaded to the library - the ones which have "Say Yes to Europe" emblazoned down the fuselage. A political request as it were.

 I voted against that. So I'm just expressing my slight displeasure in seeing liveries with a political statement in the AVSIM library.

I say "slight" due to the following reasons:-

I haven't got an A320 as yet and yes, I do NOT have to download or use the liveries in question. It was up to Lufthansa to apply those schemes in the real world so an accurate virtual livery should reflect that. I'm fine with that.

I'm all for depictions of actual aircraft being accurate, even historically accurate, so if there was a WWII Luftwaffe aircraft with a swastika on it then that would be historically accurate. I'm fine with that.

I'm not saying Lufthansa's scheme would represent anything remotely like what the swastika stood for (no way!), but we all have opinions, and as I said AVSIM doesn't do politics..

One the bright side neither a swastika or any other political statement on any aircraft is visible from within the cockpit!

Thanks for your time.

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This is a tricky area.  Setting aside WWII era aircraft and sticking with modern aircraft i think if the livery was painted on a plane then is should be ok to upload to Avsim.  You will probably notice there are numerous liveries availble for each addon and each airline (particularly the big ones like Lufthansa, British, American, United, etc.) and many of the liveries try to cover the various incarnations of the liveries painted over time (F1, Worldcup, etc, etc.).  I personally take great offense to any Manchester United livery 😉 but hey it is what it is.

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While I personally detest a swastika being presented in most places, it was on WWII aircraft so it should be there.

If a true livery has Say Yes to Europe on any aircraft, I say no harm no foul.

I see this whole issue as much ado about nothing.

 

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Rick - I guess it was just my "much ado" about the nothing that anyone else may care about. I just wanted to voice an opinion and I have done so, thank you for that. Of course true liveries have their place in the library - any fictional ones which might cause offense might well be questioned..

Mark - LOL! I know what you mean. That puts it into perfect perspective :biggrin: My father and my son are City fans - I have Etihad's Blue Moon Rising A330 in my virtual hangar... (it's about now that you tell me you're a Liverpool fan.. :blush:)

Actually, as I'm typing this I realised that someone - the uploader of the liveries -  has spent time and effort recreating a specific livery. I do not want to be dismissive of that effort and as such I apologise, but only to the uploader for their effort.I do not apologise to Lufthansa for having the opinion that I do. :cool:

 

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Posted (edited)

Mark,

Be it politics, religion, worldview, football preferences, or whatever else that makes people opponents - we have enough of this mess in the real world.
Let the skies, including or maybe especially virtual ones, be free of it. Please.

Edited by Rafal
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Yes, much ado about nothing.  There are a lot of liveries uploaded over the years which were political to some but not to all.  They are not visible to the AVSIM Forums but, if someone were to download one and place it in the forums, I am positive it would be removed sooner than later.  Very sooner.

Best regards,

Jim

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3 hours ago, HighBypass said:

I have noticed that some Lufthansa A320 liveries have been uploaded to the library - the ones which have "Say Yes to Europe" emblazoned down the fuselage. A political request as it were.

I had seen that and had no idea “Say Yes to Europe” was a political reference until I googled it. I though “Say Yes to Europe” was just a slogan to promote travel or tourism to Europe, lol.

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So, I live in the Colonies across the Big Pond.  I think I should take offense (or offence) at the OneWorld liveries.😏

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6 hours ago, cmpbellsjc said:

I had seen that and had no idea “Say Yes to Europe” was a political reference until I googled it. I though “Say Yes to Europe” was just a slogan to promote travel or tourism to Europe, lol.

i had the same initial confused thought haha! back in the 70s and 80s there was an ad campaign "Say Yes! to Michigan" that ran tv advertisements regularly to encourage tourism in the state.

 

cheers,-andy crosby

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Maybe Southwest Airlines will make a "Make America Great Again" livery - then we'll see.

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My personal policy: if I don't like it don't upload it and move on. Don't censer others unless it's blatantly vulger.

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To paraphrase an opinion by a U.S. Supreme Court justice in the 1960's:  I can't define obscenity but, "I know it when I see it"...

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Posted (edited)

If you were going to object to anything, I'd have thought you'd start with some of Ryanair's more "imaginative" liveries.  Rather than Lufthansa's bit of support for a grouping of nations that's made Europe rich and peaceful for decades as well as allowing aviation to expand beyond all belief, Ryanair prefer to insult other airlines and those airports who've had the temerity to try to charge for using their runways!

Edited by ailchim

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, cmpbellsjc said:

I had seen that and had no idea “Say Yes to Europe” was a political reference until I googled it. I though “Say Yes to Europe” was just a slogan to promote travel or tourism to Europe, lol.

I think the same. To promote travel and tourism in Europe.

I think you need to be British and no sayer, to see any political message in that slogan. It says Europe and not European Union. Two different things.

Europe is geographical, the European Union is political.

So, the UK will always be part of Europe.

By the way, Lufthansa have another slogan;  "Say yes to the world"   So?

 

 

 

Edited by soerennielsen

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Posted (edited)

As much as I may disagree with someone's political beliefs, I believe it is their right to express it.  A political statement on an airline livery shouldn't be an issue really.  If you don't like it then don't fly with that airline and don't download that livery.  I surmise that the airline simply stands to benefit economically from a more integrated Europe. 

I will say one thing that may relate to the European Union, and this is not a political statement but a historical fact.  The United States was originally a union of mostly sovereign States.  In fact, each State still has its own Legislature, Executive, and Judicial System, police, and even its own military(National Guard).  Over the past 100 years, however, the national Federal Government has usurped a lot of power that the States used to have so that they have lost much of their sovereignty.  For a number of years the States weren't even allowed to set their own speed limits but had to abide by a federally mandated 55 mph limit (this was thankfully repealed in the 1990s).  The States still have their own laws, but the national government has become so large and powerful that it dominates even all 50 States combined when it comes to financial and military power.  As an example, all the State budgets combined amount to just under 2 trillion dollars, but the Federal Govt. budget is over twice that amount at 4.5 trillion. The national govt. can also run endless deficits, accumulate as much debt as it likes, and issue its own currency, but the States have to be much more careful because they are smaller and can't borrow endlessly without consequences, plus they can't issue their own currencies. 

Anyway, something to think about...

Dave

 

Edited by dave2013
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1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

As much as I may disagree with someone's political beliefs, I believe it is their right to express it.  A political statement on an airline livery shouldn't be an issue really.  If you don't like it then don't fly with that airline and don't download that livery.  I surmise that the airline simply stands to benefit economically from a more integrated Europe. 

I will say one thing that may relate to the European Union, and this is not a political statement but a historical fact.  The United States was originally a union of mostly sovereign States.  In fact, each State still has its own Legislature, Executive, and Judicial System, police, and even its own military(National Guard).  Over the past 100 years, however, the national Federal Government has usurped a lot of power that the States used to have so that they have lost much of their sovereignty.  For a number of years the States weren't even allowed to set their own speed limits but had to abide by a federally mandated 55 mph limit (this was thankfully repealed in the 1990s).  The States still have their own laws, but the national government has become so large and powerful that it dominates even all 50 States combined when it comes to financial and military power.  As an example, all the State budgets combined amount to just under 2 trillion dollars, but the Federal Govt. budget is over twice that amount at 4.5 trillion. The national govt. can also run endless deficits, accumulate as much debt as it likes, and issue its own currency, but the States have to be much more careful because they are smaller and can't borrow endlessly without consequences, plus they can't issue their own currencies. 

Anyway, something to think about...

Dave

 

Thank you. Very well stated.

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On 5/1/2019 at 1:51 AM, overspeed3 said:

....  I think I should take offense (or offence) at the OneWorld liveries.😏

Indeed sir. It is your right to do so. Although... we do only have the one planet (world)...:cool:

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On 5/1/2019 at 4:46 PM, dave2013 said:

....the States have to be much more careful because they are smaller and can't borrow endlessly without consequences, plus they can't issue their own currencies

In a way Dave that sounds very much like our own County and Borough Councils in the UK..

 soerennielsen - A good argument.  I now see how the statement is interpreted either way. Thank you.

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Posted (edited)

An download of a livery to your PC will not be offensive to anyone else.  It's your choice to install it, its your PC, it's a current affair.  It harms no-one else. 

Edited by ErichB
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Would "Say no to Europe" be viewed the same!!!

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4 hours ago, rjfry said:

Would "Say no to Europe" be viewed the same!!!

I do not see any reason why not.  At least for me.  Is there only one side of a view?

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On 5/1/2019 at 10:46 AM, dave2013 said:

As much as I may disagree with someone's political beliefs, I believe it is their right to express it.  A political statement on an airline livery shouldn't be an issue really.  If you don't like it then don't fly with that airline and don't download that livery.  I surmise that the airline simply stands to benefit economically from a more integrated Europe. 

I will say one thing that may relate to the European Union, and this is not a political statement but a historical fact.  The United States was originally a union of mostly sovereign States.  In fact, each State still has its own Legislature, Executive, and Judicial System, police, and even its own military(National Guard).  Over the past 100 years, however, the national Federal Government has usurped a lot of power that the States used to have so that they have lost much of their sovereignty.  For a number of years the States weren't even allowed to set their own speed limits but had to abide by a federally mandated 55 mph limit (this was thankfully repealed in the 1990s).  The States still have their own laws, but the national government has become so large and powerful that it dominates even all 50 States combined when it comes to financial and military power.  As an example, all the State budgets combined amount to just under 2 trillion dollars, but the Federal Govt. budget is over twice that amount at 4.5 trillion. The national govt. can also run endless deficits, accumulate as much debt as it likes, and issue its own currency, but the States have to be much more careful because they are smaller and can't borrow endlessly without consequences, plus they can't issue their own currencies. 

Anyway, something to think about...

Dave

 

 

its also a fact that we have a unified budget and a part of that federal budget was collected in taxes from previous generations.

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We need to keep this on topic.  We are starting to slide into the area of closure.

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11 hours ago, rjfry said:

Would "Say no to Europe" be viewed the same!!!

As a "political" livery, I'd say yes Ray. IMO it should be viewed the same.. insofar as should it be uploaded?

Granted, I for one would not be offended, but others may be.

Perhaps my post will be short lived, but it has (so far) sparked an interesting discussion regarding different interpretations of the same phrase (political versus tourism).

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