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Environment Force Discussion Thread

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6 minutes ago, GEKtheReaper said:

@0Artur0 @skysurfer you realy should not use a shader tweak over another shader tweak.

Think of a wall that is white (standard P3D) which is painted over with orange by EF --> what color is the wall?

Now think that before applying your orange paint (throug EF) you paint the wall dark green (with a shader mod as ENVSHADE or PTA) --> what color will you see?

You would be able to use the shader mods combined only if you know exactly what each shader mode changes and can choose (by appropiate settings) if you want to use shader mod 1 or 2.

E.g. Tomato shade adds a metallic look (reflection/ refraction) to the ACFT fusselage. EF does not do that so you might use both combined.

But Tomatoshade also changes some other things which are indeed also changed by EF. Here you must choose what to keep.

All makes sense.

Am doing my last night of a completely new fresh install of 4.5, I use TS for FSL refections and VC lighting. But am not going to install TS for the reasons you say, going to see what ASP4+SF+EF look like with no other shader in the brew.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, GEKtheReaper said:

@0Artur0 @skysurfer you realy should not use a shader tweak over another shader tweak.

Think of a wall that is white (standard P3D) which is painted over with orange by EF --> what color is the wall?

Now think that before applying your orange paint (throug EF) you paint the wall dark green (with a shader mod as ENVSHADE or PTA) --> what color will you see?

You would be able to use the shader mods combined only if you know exactly what each shader mode changes and can choose (by appropiate settings) if you want to use shader mod 1 or 2.

E.g. Tomato shade adds a metallic look (reflection/ refraction) to the ACFT fusselage. EF does not do that so you might use both combined.

But Tomatoshade also changes some other things which are indeed also changed by EF. Here you must choose what to keep.

I'm very well aware of that, that's why I asked the question in the first place 😉 I know some people are using it in combination with PTA but with PTA having so many presets available you can't really know what the results actually are at all. ENVSHADE is a different story though. Since it's only one preset for everybody one can know exactly what the results are. That's why I'd like to hear from somebody using specifically those two add-ons together. As far as I'm aware EF doesn't affect VC at all and there may be other parts of the sim that EF does not touch and ENVSHADE or PTA does. That's why I'm not that keen of straight up replacing ENVSHADE with EF. I may be wrong on that last one though. If EF can do absolutely everything, and I mean everything, that mentioned shader add-ons can then I'll go with EF in Auto mode the second I get a conformation for that.

Edited by 0Artur0

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3 hours ago, GEKtheReaper said:

@0Artur0 @skysurfer you realy should not use a shader tweak over another shader tweak.

Think of a wall that is white (standard P3D) which is painted over with orange by EF --> what color is the wall?

Now think that before applying your orange paint (throug EF) you paint the wall dark green (with a shader mod as ENVSHADE or PTA) --> what color will you see?

You would be able to use the shader mods combined only if you know exactly what each shader mode changes and can choose (by appropiate settings) if you want to use shader mod 1 or 2.

E.g. Tomato shade adds a metallic look (reflection/ refraction) to the ACFT fusselage. EF does not do that so you might use both combined.

But Tomatoshade also changes some other things which are indeed also changed by EF. Here you must choose what to keep.

I have just got off REX support. I turned HDR off in EF and I now use PTA shaders only. All looks good as I had before. If you want to use EF HDR then HDR should be turned On in EF and then you have to tweak it to your likening. 

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3 hours ago, skysurfer said:

I have the same issue but I turn off HDR in EF mini UI and ReCompile Shaders. Works fine. But I us PTA. The issue is that if I start P3D again HDR will turn back On again. I am working with REX support to find a solution.  

We are working on new HDR functionality where you will be able to preserve own settings.

Recompile CTD in v4.4 has been fixed, as well as save settings (HDR on/off, fog, etc.)

We will be live soon. Thanks

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, 0Artur0 said:

ENVSHADE is a different story though.

You are right! Since your enquiery targetet only ENVSHADE, I took the time to write things down.

ENVSHADE does not have any settings or presets or whatsoever. It is only an On / Off thing that does not have any dynamics in it. I realy liked the looks of it but IMHO it can't (or should not) be used with EF.

I own ENVSHADE but have disabled it just because the On/Off thing. EF launch was not exactly butter smooth and I don't want any other variables to mess around with it.

So I would recomend to everyone that purchased EF, to try it out without other stuff to interfere with it (exactly what @Nyxx is doing).

Just have a look at the number of users complaining (or asking for help) in forums like AVSIM / REX / Prepar3d / etc.: my aircraft is suddenly black and it's because the HF, my skies have artifacts and REX is to blame / I could go on forever.

You understand why I don't encourage you to even think of the possibility to combine shaders??? 😉

So just let the dust settle and maybe you won't need other shaders mod beside EF....

Edited by GEKtheReaper

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1 hour ago, GEKtheReaper said:

I own ENVSHADE but have disabled it just because the On/Off thing. EF launch was not exactly butter smooth and I don't want any other variables to mess around with it.

So, you prefer EF visuals over ENVSHADE?

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2 hours ago, 0Artur0 said:

So, you prefer EF visuals over ENVSHADE?

Used Envshade for a long time now solely EF. So far the look of EF is at least as good probably better because there is a bit more variety but you have to initially tweak HDR levels of ground, terrain, sky, cloud and object saturation levels to your liking before hitting auto. For some reason some saturation was too extreme for me.

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2 hours ago, glider1 said:

Used Envshade for a long time now solely EF. So far the look of EF is at least as good probably better because there is a bit more variety but you have to initially tweak HDR levels of ground, terrain, sky, cloud and object saturation levels to your liking before hitting auto. For some reason some saturation was too extreme for me.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of EF over Envshade just a bit more variety plus the hassle of more tweaking.  Still very much on the fence with EF but following developments with interest.

Bruceb

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18 minutes ago, brucewtb said:

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of EF over Envshade just a bit more variety plus the hassle of more tweaking.  Still very much on the fence with EF but following developments with interest.

Bruceb

There isn't much tweaking, no more than what we do with any addon. Once done it is set and forget. All tweaking is done in sim live.

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3 hours ago, glider1 said:

There isn't much tweaking, no more than what we do with any addon. Once done it is set and forget. All tweaking is done in sim live.

Yep really Nice indeed but not without a performance penalty on my system. 

I have about 7-10 fps lost with this one. Maybe some functions in automate mode that i was not using before is causing this. Nothing change in overcast rendering so it must be elsewhere. Is it possible to quickly restore to P3D default or am i forced to do a client install/reinstall? 

Thanks Michael Moe 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, 0Artur0 said:

So, you prefer EF visuals over ENVSHADE?

Let's say I like the idea of the dynamics in EF (all other shader mods are static). EF does a lot more then ENVSHADE does and since I can't choose what to tune in ENVSHADE (it's only ON/OFF), I use only EF at this moment.

Done 2 flights already with the new TU 1.1 and didn't have to do anything (or only one thing: reduced adaptation scalar) and pretty much liked what I've seen. My flight started at 18UTC in EDNY (near lake Constance). I have water, montaneus region, LOWI not far away and the sim looked amazing. We had some rainy weather (overcast) and piercing through the cloud layer everything changed. It felt a bit more warm an natural experiencing this with EF then ENVSHADE.

Edited by GEKtheReaper

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35 minutes ago, Michael Moe said:

Yep really Nice indeed but not without a performance penalty on my system. 

I have about 7-10 fps lost with this one. Maybe some functions in automate mode that i was not using before is causing this. Nothing change in overcast rendering so it must be elsewhere. Is it possible to quickly restore to P3D default or am i forced to do a client install/reinstall? 

Thanks Michael Moe 

7-10 is a lot. Did you change back the cloud texture resolutions which by default are on 4096? That absolutely tanks performance for me with or without EF. 512 is all I can do and would have liked a 256 option.

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1 hour ago, GEKtheReaper said:

Let's say I like the idea of the dynamics in EF (all other shader mods are static). EF does a lot more then ENVSHADE does and since I can't choose what to tune in ENVSHADE (it's only ON/OFF), I use only EF at this moment.

Done 2 flights already with the new TU 1.1 and didn't have to do anything (or only one thing: reduced adaptation scalar) and pretty much liked what I've seen. My flight started at 18UTC in EDNY (near lake Constance). I have water, montaneus region, LOWI not far away and the sim looked amazing. We had some rainy weather (overcast) and piercing through the cloud layer everything changed. It felt a bit more warm an natural experiencing this with EF then ENVSHADE.

You are incorrect .

With PTA and TS you can use expressions which are Dynamic tweaks. So your Environment changes depending on weather , sun stength , time of day , altitude etc.

That exists for over 2 years now ...

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8 hours ago, glider1 said:

Used Envshade for a long time now solely EF. So far the look of EF is at least as good probably better because there is a bit more variety but you have to initially tweak HDR levels of ground, terrain, sky, cloud and object saturation levels to your liking before hitting auto. For some reason some saturation was too extreme for me.

Why is this initial tweaking necessary? Because you don't like what REX set as initial settings or because if you don't you get the default P3D look?

Off topic: Does anybody know why are the things I quote all messed up with line brakes and some random numbers?

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21 minutes ago, GSalden said:

You are incorrect .

With PTA and TS you can use expressions which are Dynamic tweaks. So your Environment changes depending on weather , sun stength , time of day , altitude etc.

I think we were talking here mostly about ENVSHADE (but yes, I stated "all other shader mods").

I've identified a big no. of users who would like to see a life and real environment WITHOUT tuning x+1 parameters. I expect EF to deliver that! And I want to fly not to spend 1/2 Year to tweak the sim how I would imagine it to look good to me. I'm no meteorologist no'r a pilot no'r whatsoever. I look outside, fire up my sim (with real weather and so on) and expect to get the same image and feeling that I saw outside. I would like experts to take care of that for me and afterwards, if I realy want a more vibrant look, then I get on with tweaking.

I also suspect that the Expressinons you have mentioned, don't realy bring the same dynamic environment that EF does (i wrote I suspect which is not mandatory to be).

I will try to make a short excursion in SF3D and ASCA discussions. We all know that ASCA injects all of it's textures on the fly in the sim (with appropiate settings). Now how many users would be able to tell the difference if ASCA's dynamic mode is used or just one of it's themes? I for myself could not because all the themes include all cloud types (and as I mentioned, I'm no meteorologist).

Another example is SF3D before EF. How many disscusions were there about the dynamics of ASCA compared to SF3D? Again, how many users could have told you the difference if all SF3D themes would be used or just variations of ONE?

So my entire idea of EF in Automation mode is a living environment as accurate as possible to what I see outside. And by the love of God if I fly towards the sun I want to have such bloom that I need to put my sunglases on to fly ;) <-- this was a joke

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@0Artur0 Off Topic: Yea...something is wrong with quoting but seams to be related only to your posts since I only get trouble quoting you....weird...

On Topic: Looks is hardly objective 😉 (or do we all like the same tipe of women?). It can start with a badly calibrated monitor where colors are washed out up to....whatever

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8 minutes ago, GEKtheReaper said:

@0Artur0 Off Topic: Yea...something is wrong with quoting but seams to be related only to your posts since I only get trouble quoting you....weird...

On Topic: Looks is hardly objective 😉 (or do we all like the same tipe of women?). It can start with a badly calibrated monitor where colors are washed out up to....whatever

Looks are subjective, sure, but as you said:

Quote

I would like experts to take care of that for me

That's why I like ENVSHADE and that's why I expected Auto mode to do somethnig along those lines.

Off topic: well, now I'm worried. Only me? word not allowed. Ok, I made this post with IE just to see if the problem persists. I'm usually using Chrome though. Mods, any ideas?

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Posted (edited)

@Lorby_SI Crazy idea man. You created a wonderfull flashlight tool i can't live without anymore.

What about a Sunglas tool to overcome the bright cockpits or the bloom issue????? 😁 Could create it with a orange, brownish, green tint and even with a small watermark like Ray-Ben and stuff.

PS: I know this is off topic but the idea just came to me after writing above post and told me: What the hell...I could patent that (unfortunately I'm not Lorby). Should be read as a small joke aside.

Edited by GEKtheReaper

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Posted (edited)

With PTA/TS ( + expressions ) you can see a living dynamical Environment ; like with EF ..

Orbx%20NL%20-%20mod%203.jpg

 

Putting EF on top of PTA/TS is tricky as you are putting shader mods on top of shader mods.

If you want to use them together you better use Automated in EF and in PTA/EF only fixed values that only differ a little from the default values. See it as finetuning.

 

 

 

Edited by GSalden

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24 minutes ago, GSalden said:

With PTA/TS ( + expressions ) you can see a living dynamical Environment ; like with EF ..

Dear Gerard, while the picture is absolutely stunning, it is a static image, a snapshot.

I'm not a PTA guru no'r want to argue with you but EF was advertised to be something completely new. Since I'm no expert, I have to trust them as I trusted them that SF3D has functionalities newer seen before in P3D. It's the first time I'm experiencing cloud forming, rain shafts, terrain and water coloring changing from Airport A to B.

If you say that PTA does the same since 2 years, I wonder why all the fuss about this product?

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15 minutes ago, GEKtheReaper said:

Dear Gerard, while the picture is absolutely stunning, it is a static image, a snapshot.

I'm not a PTA guru no'r want to argue with you but EF was advertised to be something completely new. Since I'm no expert, I have to trust them as I trusted them that SF3D has functionalities newer seen before in P3D. It's the first time I'm experiencing cloud forming, rain shafts, terrain and water coloring changing from Airport A to B.

If you say that PTA does the same since 2 years, I wonder why all the fuss about this product?

With PTA you had to set values , save the preset and then Apply. Then (re)start P3Dv4 to see the result,

With EF you can move sliders and see results right away. Automated mode is like using expressions but EF uses its own layer above the default shader .

P3Dv4.5 now has a Reload Shaders feature : after save with PTA/TS you press Apply and then reload Shaders in P3Dv4.5 . Immediately you will see your changes.

PTAv3 is on its way and that one will show the mods in realtime in P3Dv4.5. That is also very welcome for preset makers like me ...

Frankfurt%20-%20FTX%20Germany%20-%201%20

See also

 

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4 hours ago, glider1 said:

7-10 is a lot. Did you change back the cloud texture resolutions which by default are on 4096? That absolutely tanks performance for me with or without EF. 512 is all I can do and would have liked a 256 option.

Thanks , computer are a mystery sometimes , all FPS is back today ? 😌 not a clue why but who cares. 

Still need to have P3D HDR brightness at 1.30 because i want to make VC darker with EF HDR .

If i go to outside view its way to dark otherwise with 1.0.

I set EF HDR exposurekey to 0.300. Maybe there is more to it

Michael Moe 

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26 minutes ago, Michael Moe said:

Still need to have P3D HDR brightness at 1.30 because i want to make VC darker with EF HDR .

If i go to outside view its way to dark otherwise with 1.0.

I set EF HDR exposurekey to 0.300. Maybe there is more to it

Michael Moe 

Hi Michael,

That made no sense at all 🙂 

Going from brightness 1 to 1.3 should make things brighter, no darker!

Michael, try this, use the option in the mini UI to set back to factory setting. Turn OFF HDR in P3D. 

I've not installed TS as i wont to see how EF works with no outside shaders. VC were not dark at all. I just set SF & EF textures to DTX5 1024. Auto mode.

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Posted (edited)

My very first finding of note with TS R&D preset + EF and now with only EF is notable.

In the Maule all white with TS R&D preset with EF I notice the struts holding the wings up and the engine cowling when looking from the VC, when in shadow had a blue tint to it, a noticeable one. The shadows looked light blue.

Also, I notice from some angles in the sun with FSL TS refections some odd colour tints. 

When loading up the Maule last night all shadows were shades of grey and the FSL had no odd tints at some angles. All looked fine but not done a flight yet so we will see.  

So yes shaders on shaders are not the best option. 

I would like to try Gerard's suggestion and have a TS profile with all setting set to default and use the minimin setting to make reflections work. But I have no idea how to do that.

Can anyone make a TS profile like that? also one for PTA guys?

If someone could make a profile like that then "we" could just tweak VC lighting to our own taste and have the wonderful reflections until FSL do PBR.

Edited by Nyxx

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2 hours ago, GSalden said:

Putting EF on top of PTA/TS is tricky as you are putting shader mods on top of shader mods.

If you want to use them together you better use Automated in EF and in PTA/EF only fixed values that only differ a little from the default values. See it as finetuning.

So yesterday I decided I'm going to make EF work for me...

I have been using SF3D with your PTA All Months AprV16 preset. Initially I fired up with EF and everything was washed out and gray, so I disabled the EF HDR and enabled the P3D HDR and after a minute or two, magically the VC and surroundings looked great. Very much like I had it before. My only issue is I get the "billboard" trees that are a flat bright green until I get close to them, then they start to pop into full depth and shading. Not sure whether that's an ORBX Trees HD issue, or the airport scenery I am at, or PTA, or EF. Too hard to tell.

@GSalden since I'm using your PTA preset, ASP4, SF3D & EF, what should I disable or change in your preset that is "dynamic" to play nice with EF? The one test flight I've done was very nice BTW.

Thanks,

Bruce

 

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