Will FS10 finally herald the end of the 2D panels

[TonyB 1]

Overall, I spend most of my time in VC. I probably won't buy much payware going forward that doesn't have a good VC. It is still nice to have a 2D panel to use as well, so I hope we keep both.Tony=http://www.flightsim-bevs.com]

[Magic Man 2]

Dropping 2D panels would simply be a step back.the 3D VC is very nice and the more the better but it simply can't replace the photo-realistic and smooth operation of most 2D panels.And as for those of us who fly on more than one monitor, lack of 2D panels would be a disaster.Panels in a real aircraft are static and to simulate that the best way is with 2D panels.Saying that I'm all for making the VC outside view more manageable e.g. splitting it over several monitors, seperating it from the cockpit side of things etc.One other thing, the VC is very good if, like me, you have a Track IR Vector setup but I can't imagine anyone prefering to use the VC over the 2D panels if they have to look around using a hat switch or keyboard shortcut.

[Guest artmartin]

After reading the differing opinions, maybe the solution is a flat-out compromise. Still allow the 2d cockpits but give an option in the setup screens to remove the 2d or any of the options as a choice when toggling. I'd love to be able, with a single click, to go between the chase plane and VC views without having to wait for the switch between the 2D and the tower views. I find myself rarely using them.Art

[robert young 2,897]

Well designed 3d-only panels are not in fact more difficult to read. They should be every bit as clear asd 2d panels. However when you have a large panel with many instruments, you will see that most developers divide the panel up into several 2d panels, typically the captain's panel and 1st officer's panel. They also chop up the auxilliary panels showing the throttle console, overhead, radios etc etc.The problem is not that you cannot see the panel, it is that to get an overall picture of a complex panel you have to zoom out, and to get detail you have to zoom in. The field of vision in a 3d panel can never match real-life viewing unless the monitor is equal to the size of the panel, in which case the monitor would have to be hi-res and about 5 feet accross.A slight myth evident here is that a 3d panel is always inferior to a 2d panel. Not so. If you zoom into one of our panels at the same zoom level of an equivalent 2d panel the focus is exactly the same, or on some systems even better.The problem is getting that field of vision in just ONE panel. Until we get very wide moniters and systems capable of running them smoothly at hi res, it is inevitable that complex panels will have to be chopped up into their constituent parts. The challenge therefore is not so much the capability of FS, or developers, to provide such a thing, but the still extremely primitive technology available to show a simulation on a large screen running at acceptable frame rates. For that we are going to have to wait for CPU's and graphics cards a lot faster and more efficient than those currently available.Rob Young - RealAir Simulations

[LAdamson 240]

Flying on instruments & staring at 2D panels are one thing. IMO, 2D is STILL the way to go for primary instrument work. But........If you want to get the feel & look of coordinating throttle, & control surfaces, along with mass, inertia, power to weight, in a high powered sport or military plane, then go 3D. Rob, IS the PRO at developing this type of virtual cockpit, and the RealAir SF260 & Spitfire prove it. IF you fly real aircraft, preferably something faster than a Cessna single, then you'll appreciate the subtle airframe & head movements, combined with some of the finest flight dynamics ever developed, when you fly a RealAir VC airplane. This VC concept isn't curiosity, or comparable to spot plane flying. These are VC's that re-create the feel of mastering flight with stick & rudder. These are planes that put the fun back into landings, as well as the takeoff & climb, not to mention aerobatics, or the sensation of slips, skids, or other motions asssociated with yaw. These are simulated airplanes that boggle the mind with sensations of flight, never possible with static 2D bitmaps.These are what I prefer flying, because it's what I prefer in real life. And what the heck, many of my retired or near retired commercial pilot friends & aquaintances fly these high powered sport or ex-military airplanes, after they've stared at instruments too long...... too! :D L.AdamsonNote: Yoke/Stick & rudder pedals ----- highly recommended!

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

LarryFlying IFR with 2D why ??? I thought most pilots now hit autopilot LNAV and VNAV and watch the aircraft do its own thing for the next so many hours :-)More reason to use the VC where you at least get some feeling of periferal view rather than the claustraphobic 2D Oh well all to their own ;-)There has to be a better wayPeternb maybe the guys and gals at MS will think one up

[Tabs 2,790]

I'm totally for a VC only FS10 with one condition - MS implements a good way of managing views and moving around the environment.For anyone that says 3D cockpits can't work - go buy a copy of Lock On - the VC's in that sim are all that's there and they are of a higher visual quality than a lot of 2D panels in MSFS. Technology needs to move forward and all 3D is where it's at for the future...

[LAdamson 240]

>Larry>>Flying IFR with 2D why ??? I thought most pilots now hit>autopilot LNAV and VNAV and watch the aircraft do its own>thing for the next so many hours :-)>I confess, I usually use pop-up panels for the radio stack, auto-pilot, & GPS when required. Once the plane is safely on auto-pilot, it's back to admiring mountain topography with the VC or spot views! :)Personally, I'd like to see some Garmin 1000 or Avidyne type glass panels. Just ordered my Garmin 1000 instructional DVD from Sporty's. As to what type of panel with work best for this system, I don't know. Contrary to SOME peoples feelings, I feel that this type of panel, once mastered, offers more time to look out the window, review charts, etc.L.Adamson

[Guest Pabra]

Bizarre.....am I one of the chosen few blessed with this wonderful addon known as track-ir which allows to pan hands free in the vc; absolutely unlimited viewing and as fast as you can turn your head and with the option (track-ir expansion) to move around in the vc (and out the window).....bizarre........Example; the other day folks were complaining about a yoke blocking the hsi of a certain vc; I simply lean forward "over" the yoke to see...I've got a hunch it's done in the real thing too. It took some time to get used to and find the best setting but the rest is history as they say.....my best investment to date!Paul@ehgg

[Guest Mirage]

I hope the next version doesn't get rid of 2D panels, because I don't fly without them. In fact, I don't fly anything without a 2D panel. And if it's worth it I add one... :-)Andy

[N400QW 205]

"Personally, I'd like to see some Garmin 1000 or Avidyne type glass panels. Just ordered my Garmin 1000 instructional DVD from Sporty's." As you may already know....our Cirrus SR20 already has Avidynes AND a VC ONLY option.We built a 2D ONLY version, a VC ONLY version, and a FULL 2D/VC version. The discussion seems moot if MS chooses to retain both 2D and VC capability and the question is...why would they do away with 2D/VC capability when perhaps 50-60% of users PREFER the 2D/VC capability.:-)

[JP_Visser 3]

>Bizarre.....am I one of the chosen few blessed with this>wonderful addon known as track-ir which allows to pan hands>free in the vc; absolutely unlimited viewing and as fast as>you can turn your head and with the option (track-ir>expansion) to move around in the vc (and out the>window).....bizarre........>>Example; the other day folks were complaining about a yoke>blocking the hsi of a certain vc; I simply lean forward "over">the yoke to see...I've got a hunch it's done in the real thing>too. >>It took some time to get used to and find the best setting but>the rest is history as they say.....my best investment to>date!>>Paul@ehggi guess you are.in any case,i know there's a track ir with vector expansion,but i also know i'll never get used to the VC,i just flat out hate it.so why should i buy track ir?and don't give me the "but if you try you'll love it" message,i can try it,but if i do not love it,i've blown a lot of money,just because some folks said i should try it...I'll stay with my 2d,that i know i like,that i can easily modify,and customize if i do not like the complete picture.Also,adding stuff is a lot easier then in a VC.And if you VC afficionado's feel i'm hindering progress,too bad.I'm just feeling i do not like VC's,and as i've written before:If msfs ever goes to the 3d only,the last sim having 2d panels will be the last sim i fly.I really really do not like vc's,sorry.Also,i don't mind there's lotsa folks that like the VC very much.Good for you guys,really.But i do mind you all hail it as if it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.It's not,it is nothing but an option,in a simulator with lots of options.And imnsho,the option 2d versus 3d is one of the options that should remain in the sim.cheersJP.

[StoneC0ld 5]

Well, I can say this..... A permanent removal of 2D panels essentially equals at least partial removal of backwards compatibility....Consider this.... So many aircraft available that do not have VC's that rely on the 2D panel. Remove the 2D panel, and the aircraft is essentially unusable with no panel whatsoever, not even one that can be added by 3rd parties since the VC is part of the aircraft model.I could see MS switching things around so that the VC is the default cockpit view and the 2D panel is secondary, but to remove the 2D completely would make quite a few aircraft obsolete (at least until the authors, some of whom may not be in the FS business anymore, decide to update the model to add a VC..) MS could even make in an option in the settings, to choose which panel to use by default....

[Trans_27 Pilot Chase 59]

>But i do mind you all hail it as if it's the greatest thing since >sliced bread.>It's not,it is nothing but an option,in a simulator with lots of >options.If you state you opinion about 2D, why cant some one else state theirs about the 3D?Your comment isnt factual, its and opinion. As for the VC, same case there, its not factual, its also a opinion.So, why do you mind when other people state THEIR OPINION that the VC is the best? Its just a opinion made, and its not a fact. Even if it was, why would you mind? It doesnt effect you, or any one else. Its just preference.And my opinion on the matter is this:I love the 2D, its really nice to have for take off, approach, landing, and all the other times when you need to keep scanning the gauges and changing something. The VC is also wonderfull. It does provide what a pilot, or passenger of that aircraft, which ever it may be, is experiencing.So, i guess it depends on which one you enjoy the most. But honestly guys, i dont see MS dropping 2D's anytime soon.For people with lower end systems, the 2d is a major advantage. And for those with a more current, up to date, PC, the VC is nice if you enjoy the realism and the option...I highly doubt MS dropping the 2D any time in the near future. Even if they do, im shure some one out there will modify FS, or create a add-on, that will allow you to once again, use a 2D panel from a previous version of FS. But, i dont think thats a issue, as id be willing to put money on it, that MS doesnt drop the 2D and go strictly VC for several reasons...Just my 2 cents.. :-wave

[Guest dcc]

I agree completely. The old adage.. 'if it aint broke don't fix it,' applies here. The 2D panel isn't broke and has a lot of utility. MS could also give an option to bypass the 2D altogether for those who want it gone, or for those who don't care to press 'S' to get past it while cylcing views.- dcc