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New MS Flight Sim shown at E3

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2 hours ago, sjt said:

Oh, what fun!

I'm more a reader in here than a writer, but here goes.... I've a Private Pilot's License, have owned and flown competition sailplanes as a fully qualified instructor, been a flight simmer almost since the first MS sims, and develop (for myself) apps using SimConnect and .NET.

 

 

 

Well, your 2 cents worth are as good as anyone else's but I find it very hard to believe that what I saw in the trailer was FSX/P3D with the scenery stripped out and reconfigured.  That ancient code is too system resource intensive to allow the fluidity we see in the video at 4k.  I believe this is something totally new, granted there may be a few bits of old in there when it comes to ATC, models, Navaids, etc. Time will tell.  We have to keep saying that for the next 18 months I suppose.

Edited by 188AHC
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I just read something from a website that supposed to make an interview from someone in the development team.. And they said the SIM is 2 Petabytes of information.. So that’s like 2,000 terabytes? Hahaha I hope its a joke.. I was thinking on updating my GPU no the HDD...

But that give us an idea of a cloud game.. that downloads everything from the internet, plus there are lots of companies working like Aerosoft, Orbx, Carenado, PMDG.. So I’m guessing there would the no need for tweaking the game, and you’ll will download everything and maybe yo don’t need a NASA’s PC to running it for the same reason..

In the downside read something about paying every month for the game something about 20USD.. And make sense since it has to be sign in the Microsoft severs in order to play, and its the same reason its going to be compatible with Xbox..

Of course this is just a hypothesis i just made, i might be completely wrong..

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15 minutes ago, CarlHill said:

Well, your 2 cents worth are as good as anyone else's but I find it very hard to believe that what I saw in the trailer was FSX/P3D with the scenery stripped out and reconfigured.  That ancient code is too system resource intensive to allow the fluidity we see in the video at 4k.  I believe this is something totally new, granted there may be a few bits of old in there when it comes to ATC, models, Navaids, etc. Time will tell.  We have to keep saying that for the next 18 months I suppose.

Here is a Thought. We may be seeing new scenery running on a version of P3D Ver 5.0. As far as I know.....MS and LM are not enemies. Could be that the future is going to be MS for the gamers or Hobby folks and LM will take that Tech forward to commercial interest. That sort of plan could explain why LM has tried so hard to get Dev's to use their file system ect. That sort of deal could be great for all concerned.


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25 minutes ago, irrics said:

Given that the existing market basically only consist of fanatics that are left, I think we’re talking about a massive expansion of the mainstream market and a much larger opportunity than is currently supporting the businesses as is. 

Even with a monthly subscription for base scenery, just an assumption for conversation, it’s hard for me to believe that having Microsoft back in the game with a next generation flight sim title isn’t going to greatly expand the potential for everybody in the marketplace. 

We’ve all just been so conditioned to try to hang onto the past and what is left and hope people can keep it going that I think we are having trouble getting our heads around how awesome it is that they are back and doing something that looks better than anything we have today visually. 

"something that looks better than anything we have today visually."

This is going to sound very stick-in-the-mud I know, but not everyone is turned on by visuals alone. I enjoy a feeling of buoyancy and slight turbulence in the air, because that reminds me of the light GA planes and helicopters I used to charter for aerial photo shoots back in the day (I'm not a pilot, but hired plenty of them). I like dynamic weather modeling, not just pretty clouds and sunsets.

I have fairly narrow interests in aircraft too -- bush planes, vintage radial-engine planes, and helicopters. There isn't anything in the initial list of aircraft that excites me, except for maybe the Super Cub. Just one rotary wing would make me feel they were going to be serious about attracting the more hardcore simmers in the initial release. Lack of rotary wing also suggests they might not want people looking too close at that scenery near ground level. I know it's early days yet and the list isn't final.

To be clear, I am excited about this entry in the market, and will definitely give it a shot. But it won't hold me for long, if it doesn't offer more than just gorgeous scenery. 

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19 minutes ago, CarlHill said:

That ancient code is too system resource intensive to allow the fluidity we see in the video at 4k. 

Do you know what your CPU is mostly being used for in P3D and FSX? It's practically all being used to page the scenery and the autogen, not so much on vehicle physics. The aircraft physics don't consume a lot of CPU - but the scenery paging steals most of it. LM have addressed that partly by loading the GPU with as much scenery rendering as it can - but it's not rendering that is the problem - it's the paging. I've got 2 GTI 1080s in my system, and if I switch one off it doesn't look much worse, because P3D is not a graphics hungry application. All those thousands of files I mentioned have to be read, assembled, and turned into a picture before you actually get to where you are going (that's a bit simplified, but it'll do...). That work consumes the CPU, not the graphics card. So, yes, I'm pretty confident in my own mind that the "new" base sim is not a mile different than what we already have. It will be tweaked, of course because this is MS we're talking about, but I very much doubt it'll be completely rewritten, imho. I'm speculating, I fully admit, but trying to apply some clear logic into what I am suggesting from the business perspective

Let's face it - the 1 minute plus propaganda video is not going to be released with stutters on it for us all to giggle about and tear to shreds, and no doubt we'll still see them at times when it's released until things get ironed out. But most of the intensive work that currently absorbs the CPU will be done for you, in the cloud, with the new scenery engine, which will give your CPU more resources to do other things.

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17 minutes ago, shivers9 said:

Here is a Thought. We may be seeing new scenery running on a version of P3D Ver 5.0. As far as I know.....MS and LM are not enemies.

..very close to exactly what I've been thinking, too. They are not even in the same business, so it makes sense to find some synergies

Edited by sjt

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3 hours ago, Flic1 said:

I have been simming since 1988 (Sublogic Flight Sim on C-64) with some breaks here and there but have owned nearly all MS titles.  I have to admit that I am getting a bit of flightsim fatigue lately due to many aspects of the hobby that are both frustrating, time consuming and somewhat annoying.  I am happy MS is moving forward with what I hope is brand new technology as I think it is very much needed right now.

I AGREE!!!!!! Is time to change... We need looking to future... MFS2020.

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17 minutes ago, shivers9 said:

Here is a Thought. We may be seeing new scenery running on a version of P3D Ver 5.0. As far as I know.....MS and LM are not enemies. Could be that the future is going to be MS for the gamers or Hobby folks and LM will take that Tech forward to commercial interest.

That would be interesting. One argument against it, is that LM is a military and aerospace contractor, presumably using P3D in that side of their business as well as the "academic" side. They might want to retain control of the scenery database for the military side of the biz, and not be reliant on Microsoft's Bing+Cloud+Azure tech. That tech probably also doesn't include what LM needs for underwater simulation.

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1 minute ago, Paraffin said:

They might want to retain control of the scenery database for the military side of the biz, and not be reliant on Microsoft's Bing

...and which do you think is the more accurate information? The one derived from up to date satellite information, or the one hand coded in 30 year old files that need constant attention. You know - the one with buildings that float 50 feet in the air, and that has rivers that slope at 45degrees?

 

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2 hours ago, sjt said:

Oh, what fun!

I'm more a reader in here than a writer, but here goes.... I've a Private Pilot's License, have owned and flown competition sailplanes as a fully qualified instructor, been a flight simmer almost since the first MS sims, and develop (for myself) apps using SimConnect and .NET.

 

 

I agree with most of your points.  I already surmised that the new sim will likely use the existing structures for aircraft, airports, ATC, AI, etc. as these already work quite well.  This will largely be a scenery upgrade, both engine and visuals, as you say, although I hope that MS take the time to at least fix the bugs in the ATC, and maybe add SID and STAR procedures and ground crew service.  It would also be nice to add some features such as the ability to easily update the global airac data and an improved flight planner.

I've been quite critical of J. Venema over at ORBX as some here may know, but I think your comments regarding him are a bit too harsh.  I didn't read what you did into his very short post on the ORBX forums.  I'm certain that he is indeed concerned as this new sim could upset most of ORBX's development plans and make a lot of their products obsolete, but I hope that the new MSFS will allow 3rd party development so that developers like ORBX can make scenery and other addons that improve and enhance the base simulator.

Lastly, and this doesn't involve your post but others, some have made the argument that Microsoft won't put much effort into this as it is a drop in the bucket compared to their sales of other products and services and that there must be some ulterior motive for making it.  My question then is this: why have they done it in the past over and over again for 35 years?  They clearly have an interest in flight simulation otherwise they wouldn't spend so much time and effort to develop all these flight simulators. 

Anyway, I'm actually pretty optimistic about this latest iteration of the Microsoft Flight Simulator franchise and if it's as good as all the others have been for the time they were released then I'll be happy.

Dave

Edited by 188AHC
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2 minutes ago, sjt said:

...and which do you think is the more accurate information? The one derived from up to date satellite information, or the one hand coded in 30 year old files that need constant attention. You know - the one with buildings that float 50 feet in the air, and that has rivers that slope at 45degrees?

Who's to say LM don't have an alternative content provider for maps available to commercial buyers?

I'm pretty word not allowed certain that if the US military use P3D, they won't be using Bing Maps or Bing Maps+ (Azure) as their data source.

No, I think LM will continue to offer incremental improvements on what is already in P3D and Microsoft will offer whatever they want to show off tech-wise with the new Flight Sim. Neither behemoth ultimately care about the home simmer, but we make good beta testers and add *some* revenue to offset any losses.
 


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3 minutes ago, sjt said:

...and which do you think is the more accurate information? The one derived from up to date satellite information, or the one hand coded in 30 year old files that need constant attention. You know - the one with buildings that float 50 feet in the air, and that has rivers that slope at 45degrees?

I'm not talking about civilian/academic P3D. Assuming that LM has military-side uses for the license (and otherwise why bother with it?), you can bet they'll use satellite data for internal simulation that is way better and more recent than what Microsoft can get. Which is why they may not be interested in using Microsoft's tech.

Just speculation. I have no inside info here.


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3 minutes ago, sjt said:

...and which do you think is the more accurate information? The one derived from up to date satellite information, or the one hand coded in 30 year old files that need constant attention. You know - the one with buildings that float 50 feet in the air, and that has rivers that slope at 45degrees?

 

You are forgetting two very importahnt points.Many customers will use their own data which is more precise than M$ would deliver in their open model. Second and even more important. A online access would mean internet contact and Microsoft knows when you customers are working and where they are working. Both points would be a very big no for customers in this area.

I nwould more expect that they simply drop the academic licence or demand further certification like the flight school that you are using.


Karsten Schubert

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I wouldn’t worry about being too harsh towards JV. He is a big boy and can handle it

I have nothing against the guy personally but he does rub me the wrong way sometimes and they are way too quick to lock every thread over there usually. 

I have a pretty strong feeling there will be a place for them to build a business in this new simulator but it’s probably not going to be around the TE stuff honestly. Microsoft has the resources to do that better than someone like OrbX

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3 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

I think your comments regarding him are a bit too harsh.

I accept that, and on reflection maybe could have been a bit more sympathetic. I just found it telling the entire thread on this was instantly shut down following his statement though.

5 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

My question then is this: why have they done it in the past over and over again for 35 years?  They clearly have an interest in flight simulation otherwise they wouldn't spend so much time and effort to develop all these flight simulators. 

Maybe the initiative hasn't come from Microsoft at all. Maybe it actually came from LM. They are in the professional real-life simulator business. They want to be able to train pilots in real life situations. They have some pretty super cockpits and 6 dof machines throwing pilots around, but the bit that's missing is "perfect" scenery information to us. I wondered out loud at home a couple of years back why DTG were playing with FSW the way they did, and why they didn't go to Google and ask for a collaborative project to bring it all together with decent scenery. So - maybe it was LM instead, who went to MS saying, "We do sims (with a piece of software you're familiar with), but we need better maps. You do maps. Howe can we do this together" ? 

 

Yet more speculation...…….. As I said in my first sentence on this. "Oh what fun!"

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