FlightSimLabs comments on MSFS 2020:

[LHookins 3,102]

33 minutes ago, Groovy_Kincaid said:

I thought it was Alaska, should have known better. I live in the PNW area

I would have thought Alaska too.  Hey, you can visit it!

Hook

[LHookins 3,102]

33 minutes ago, Greazer said:

In time, it will be: the last remaining P3d user.

We're still waiting for the last remaining FS9 user.

[Groovy_Kincaid 71]

16 minutes ago, LHookins said:

We're still waiting for the last remaining FS9 user.

That might be me and I will probably die in captivity.

 

[greggerm 312]

5 hours ago, patrickbc said:

"...We cannot, however, provide any details or answer any questions about "MSFS 2020" at the present time, other than to say that our excitement about this next version is the same as yours!"

Funny. I didn't observe any actual excitement among the flight simulator hobbyists. Sure, we're all interested in what this mysterious new offering might hold, but knowing what we know about Microsoft Games recent track record with MSFS, are we really and truly excited?

For those paying attention, Microsoft Flight is never too far from our collective recollection...

[Cognita 1,048]

3 hours ago, shivers9 said:

I am afraid that this will only be one of many projects that are going to be put on hold for the next 12-18 months. It will most likely kill the sales for a large part of our developers for both hardware and software

I agree that their announcement is going to have an effect on the current development environment. Personally, I have decided to also view the announcement optimistically and am hopeful that this next iteration of MSFS will take us a giant step forward out of the many limitations of current engines, limitations that have been the reason many of the products we use have been developed. We may still need these in this next version, I don't know, but given that I am hopeful to move to a new platform in a year or so I am certainly reconsidering purchasing the scenery and aircraft that a couple of weeks ago I thought for sure I would get.

[kingm56 1,023]

1 hour ago, Groovy_Kincaid said:

I’m going to have to agree with you 100%. A lot of developers never had to pay a licensing fee. I stated many years ago that Microsoft should have taken this approach to help support the current platform. It was a sunk cost for them. Addons then started to cost as much (or in some cases more) than the original platform.

Reading all the usual comments regarding 3rd Party Support, I can see some of them concerned regarding their margins. P3D developer license is probably the model I would have chosen if I was in charge. But the second anyone suggests DLC or an online marketplace, the everyone’s getting defensive. 

The world is changing as is the way we are entertained. Netflix was a game changer and an industry killer. I think the last surviving Blockbuster is in Alaska somewhere.

Developers got used to running the content show that any changes will have them making the comments that they are making. If there is a public SDK, or one made available, I am guessing there will be fees charged for access going forward. This only seems fair to me. We all chose our professions knowing risk and reward. The developers are/were profiting from a platform they didn’t contribute to. I also agree if it wasn’t for these developers, it would a boring world. I guess I wasn’t too happy about some of the comments coming from various developers. The impression I got is that Microsoft is evil because now their margins take a hit due to fees.

My point is people get too comfortable with what has been happening for the last 40 years. Microsoft has decided to do things differently. I think this will be a big leap forward. I still have questions about Flight Sim, but like the rest of us, they will be answered in time.

Very well articulated, sir; especially the part regarding developers casting Microsoft as some evil entity trying to steal our flight simulators.  Some of these same developers helped spread false narratives about Dovetails distribution mechanism too.  I understand their rationale; after all, they've enjoyed complete control over the marketplace, which created a paradigm that allowed them to increase prices by a staggering 187% over 2 years....MSFS threatens that environment.

Like everyone else, I'm cautiously optimistic; however, I'm incredibly pleased the champion of our genera has returned....

[overspeed3 410]

   I was actually thinking of some payware purchases recently.  Without mentioning developers, a new weather engine, a few aircraft, and regional and airport scenery.  In fact, I just got a really nice GA twin engine with a rather unique design (hint,hint).  But with this MS announcement, I think my wallet will stay in my pocket for a while awaiting news on a more definite time frame...      

[Paraffin 2,197]

24 minutes ago, kingm56 said:

Like everyone else, I'm cautiously optimistic; however, I'm incredibly pleased the champion of our genera has returned....

I wouldn't go as far as "champion of our genera."

Full credit to what MS did after acquiring the Sublogic code, in popularizing flight sims on PC over all those years. Along with the air combat sims that came soon after (anyone remember Dynamix? Microprose?) Microsoft was responsible for my interest in flight sims over most of the time I've been flying them.

But the "champions of the genre" since MS dropped ACES Studio and MS Flight like a hot potato have been Lockheed Martin, Laminar Research, IPACS (Aerofly FS2), Eagle Dynamics (DCS) and 1C/777 Studios (IL-2 and Rise of Flight series). You're not a champion of the genre when you can't promote it consistently, and only when it suits your business model. 

I'm still cautiously optimistic and looking forward to what they're doing with the new MSFS. This looks like it could be a big return. But let's give credit to everyone else who has kept this hobby alive when Microsoft wasn't interested in it.

[kingm56 1,023]

3 minutes ago, Paraffin said:

I wouldn't go as far as "champion of our genera."

Full credit to what MS did after acquiring the Sublogic code, in popularizing flight sims on PC over all those years. Along with the air combat sims that came soon after (anyone remember Dynamix? Microprose?) Microsoft was responsible for my interest in flight sims over most of the time I've been flying them.

But the "champions of the genre" since MS dropped ACES Studio and MS Flight like a hot potato have been Lockheed Martin, Laminar Research, IPACS (Aerofly FS2), Eagle Dynamics (DCS) and 1C/777 Studios (IL-2 and Rise of Flight series). You're not a champion of the genre when you can't promote it consistently, and only when it suits your business model. 

I'm still cautiously optimistic and looking forward to what they're doing with the new MSFS. This looks like it could be a big return. But let's give credit to everyone else who has kept this hobby alive when Microsoft wasn't interested in it.

Thats fair, sir....

[Ray Proudfoot 8,903]

8 hours ago, simbol said:

Yes, this could be the case assuming there is a SDK for MS2020 of course.

I think it is important to clarify that basically you would not be talking about converting code, it is like starting from scratch (from P3D or FSX) so perhaps this is the reason FSLABS wants to wait.

It could take years to see many addons to be ported over, and depending on SDK capabilities they might be better, worse or impossible to be converted, so lots of possibilities will depend on the power MS wish to give to 3rd parties DLC content providers.

Regards,

Simbol

Simbol, even if they have to start afresh with the code it won't take as long because what is required is already there. I'm talking about 32-bit to 64-bit conversion in P3D. Not FS2020 because using FSL logic they would also stop all work on their Airbuses and they're not because it's a cash cow for them.

7 hours ago, kingm56 said:

Ray,

 

Do you really think P3D V5 will be anywhere close to MSFS 2020?  As much as I appreciate P3D, they’re limited by foundational code that prevents them from making monumental progress. Conversely, Microsoft has a proven record of making prodigious leaps, as it relates to flight simulation.  Consider the difference between Flight Simulator 5.0 and FSX (10 years); Microsoft was able to completely transform the simulator in less than a decade.  Can you image what Microsoft can do with 13 years of technical growth?  I suspect MSFS 2020 will be as advanced to FSX as FSX was to FS 5.0. Now, compare FSX to P3D V4 (13 years) and you’ll note the changes are mundane by comparison.  In fact, our community has been forced to endure minor improvements while other genres are employing AI and Edge Computing to deliver the latest gaming experience.  In short, I think this hardly constitutes swapping one 64 bit simulator for another. 

 

I understand FSL’s perspective; speaking anecdotally, it no longer makes sense to procure software for a platform that maybe rendered obsolete in 6 to 9 months.  To that end, all my P3D/Xplane purchases are on hold until we glean more information about MSFS 2020.  Microsoft’s announcement has completely flipped 3^rd party development on its side; all the buzz is focused on Microsoft’s new platform and many seemed to have lost their appetite to fly in a VERY tired ESP environment.  After 2 decades, it’s time to move forward…this community deserves it more than anyone other!!  

 

One last comment, Microsoft has acknowledged this space is filled with people who procure copious amounts of hardware to augment their flying experience; I hope that statement translates into an SDK.    I do agree with you on that point, Ray.  It will be difficult to migrate without an FSUIPC like mechanism.  

Matt, P3D v5 will look better than v4 - that's probably  a given. When I look at P3D v4 compared to FSX L-M have made huge improvements in both the execution of the code and how the sim looks. I expect that to continue. Third party development is enormous and the sim has never looked so good. And performance is brilliant - even in UHD. Hat's off to L-M for what they have done to P3D.

I visited a flight sim show here in England when FSX first came out. I saw it on Microsoft's own stand running on half a dozen of the fastest computers available. It was bloody awful. Barely able to reach double-digit fps. The story back then of course was they build a sim for future hardware, not current and that was always the case with Microsoft Flight Sim. It became usable towards the end of its lifespan by which time the new one was out and the process was repeated.

It's only since L-M arrived and optimised the ESP code that performance has increased leaps and bounds. They should be given due credit for that.

So after leaving the flight sim world in 2007 and all of us initially wondering what the future was Microsoft are now back in town and based on a 8 minute video people are salivating over the new offering. It's probable we'll go back to year zero where no 3rd party software will work and there's a big question mark over the SDK. Even if there is one that means more work for developers and more expense for us. To what gain? The scenery may look more realistic but you can argue that with addons like ORBX True Earth we already have that.

I'm sorry but after the way Microsoft treated the flight sim community 12 years ago I'm not about to jump back into bed with them. My loyalties will stay with L-M and despite the issues in the base ESP engine that irritate us they are minor compared to the improvements they have made.

Finally, this topic is about FS Labs decision to halt work on a 64-bit Concorde so it would be appreciated if the mods could kindly remind people of that and for the topic not to become another FS2020 debate. Thank you.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,903]

7 hours ago, jbcallender said:

Convenient reason to can the Concorde project.......which the longer it takes, the less relevant it is.

With a comment like that I'm guessing you're an American. You'll never understand how loved Concorde was by us Brits. Just because an aircraft no longer flies why should that preclude it from being in a simulation? Will you feel the same when the 747 no longer flies?

[Christopher Low 5,324]

When I read this announcement, I felt a stab of pain for you, Ray I agree that it seems to be a knee jerk reaction on the part of FSLabs, but then I do not have access to their business model.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Christopher Low

[G-RFRY 1,705]

It could also be a ploy to stop the post like, are we there yet,what`s taking so long, were is it upto Blah Blah Blah .

Edited June 18, 2019 by rjfry

[Chock 17,769]

6 hours ago, greggerm said:

Funny. I didn't observe any actual excitement among the flight simulator hobbyists. Sure, we're all interested in what this mysterious new offering might hold, but knowing what we know about Microsoft Games recent track record with MSFS, are we really and truly excited?

For those paying attention, Microsoft Flight is never too far from our collective recollection...

Absolutely I'm excited about it. I think it's great that MS are going back in the Flight Simulator arena.

And I'll tell you what is never too far from my collective recollection: Although MS Flight wasn't great in every respect and it had some things I personally wasn't a fan of, neither was it terrible. More importantly than this is, a very large contributing factor to it not taking off as it might have done, was one of the big third party developer bosses (and we all know which one I'm talking about) throwing his weight around saying he didn't like the TPD model which Microsoft were hoping to get going with Flight and that he wouldn't support it. These comments were very instrumental in turning people against Flight. I've certainly not forgotten that.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Chock

[Ray Proudfoot 8,903]

Please keep the discussion on topic. This is the FSL thread about their future plans.