New MS Flight Sim shown at E3 - Updated Information

[Longranger 148]

2 hours ago, 188AHC said:

Everyone realizes that this is a thread about the new Microsoft Flight Simulator don't you?

Sure, but in fact that is the question. Due to their answers they try to position themselves for nearly everything. But with a limited budget and a limited number of people this is nearly impossible.I feared this from the beginning. They try not to limit their position but in fact the general expectations rose to a impossible level. In reality Microsoft themselves always had problems with the add-on market. Originally the add-ons were really hacked into the program. They had really the problem that a number of add-ons improved the systems so much that Microsoft had a problem to write a new version because it destroyed several add-ons. So they tried this SDK as a ruleset. They made guidelines and all add-ons had to follow these rules.But at the same time they got no real money from this market.On the one hand these add-ons helped the quality of their product but they got no money from this market which would have helped ACES with its internal position within Microsoft.. Microsoft only looked at them as a single game not as the creator of a whole world that gave different companies the chance to build their own titles.

Then we got Flight. Originally planed as a new try on the Microsoft Flight Simulator. Then the Xbox 360 sold remarkably well and the Xbox team suddenly got control of all games. In their eyes this was a totally wrong direction. So they changed direction. Instead of a high budget and high quality planes the game should simply sell very cheap models in gigantic numbers. It failed to reach these expectations so after 6 months the project was cancelled  But in fact many important members left the project before it was released.

Now Microsoft tries to do everything but in fact the position is pretty difficult. They are in a cut-throat competition. All these games compete with each other for time and money of the player. In reality you have a situation where many projects will fail. But the Managers don't have to make officially the decisions to  cancel projects. It is simply an open competition and every game has the chance to become a triple A title. But at the same time they can become a failed title.

But if we look around many people think Microsoft decided to make it a triple A title.Right now the only competition is the number of accesses to their promotion material.But this will change when they start to become playable.For Microsoft this is simpy one program among many to become a triple A title, but in fact they will have to compete with many games that can get a higher play time for each dollar that Microsoft spents on this title.And they are not only in competition with other games in Microsofts  game pool they also have to compete with Googles game pool. In general the Google games seem to be much more interesting.I think the biggest pool of money they will get from the Xbox where they don't have to compete with Google.So the Xbox version and playtime or money will be a necessity for the pure survival of the game not if it becomes a triple A title. 

But if we put all the clues together it makes perfect sense. They were published among many other titles at E3. They were nothing special at this event. Only the number of accesses for their advertisement trailer makes them special. So they now get more reactions and probably more internal budget. If we look at the trailer it becomes pretty simple they probably only composited elements that they have.On one computer you have the ground , on another computer you have an improved FSW, and on a third comnputer you calculate the clouds and their shadows. As a preview it makes perfect sense.The marketing department has to guess how the game will look like at release. You simply stream these images locally to their video capture and add these images. 

But now we have many people who expect a triple A title with a huge budget which will give us a new generation of flight simulators. But if I look around I don't see any indications for such a decision. So I think Microsoft simply decided to change the way how they create games. They no longer prefinance them. Instead we get early development versions and if they sell they get a higher budget and can be improved. So for the development team the situation is quite difficult they could become anything if they get the necessary budget. But will they get this budget? And here the expectations become higher and higher. If my educated guess has anything to do with reality the effect would be devastating. Our expectations and I think the expectations of Microsoft reach unrealistic heights and the reality might become very painful due to this trailer. We must not forget Microsoft was not a super effective game producer in the last few years. Compared to the PS4 they had very few successful titles and they right now cancelled several triple A projects that no one had seen. And now they suddenly have a nearly finished Flight Simulator that no one knew about? Microsoft is no Secret Service. You normally hear about important projects. After the dramatic success of the trailer the expectations on this title become very high.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Longranger

[G-RFRY 1,708]

You do all realise you have at least 8 months or more flying before you get near MSFS, and until something concreate is said by Microsoft theirs nothing to add and use the sim I have.

[pmb 5,137]

1 hour ago, DaWu said:

In other words you want people to stay where you can make money.

If MS delivers what I think they will I will deinstall P3D the Second its released. 

Let's cross the bridge when we come to it.

I MIGHT uninstall Prepar3d(5?) after Microsoft Flight Simulator being released sometime in 2020, seeing it works as promised (which no one knows at this point) and seeing MS to provide a bed for a proper ecosystem as it's impossible to include the range of features requested here into the base product. 

I'll be sure among the first ones to buy/subscribe to the new Microsoft Flight Simulator. But until then and probably even some more time into the future I am going to enjoy Prepar3d and XP (and AeroflyFS2) and buy addons for them. I just bought ORBX TE Washington and foresee a happy year and more to enjoy it until Microsoft Flight Simulator is up to speed.

Kind regards, Michael

PS: You may or may not know Rob has spent hours over hours helping people with Prepar3d installation and maintenance including an outstanding 150pp manual WITHOUT making any money of it.  

[A330-300 88]

Okay, there's a lot of misinformation in this thread  (and most threads in this forum) by, no offense, people who don't understand how the modern gaming industry works.

1.  Just because the game will be on Xbox Gamepass doesn't mean MSFS will require a subscription service. You can buy games outright too, but all Microsoft published games by default are also available through Gamepass. Sea of Thieves is one example of this. Either you get it 'free' with a Gamepass subscription or you pay full price for it. The Gamepass is like EA Access, which has been around for almost half a decade at this point.

 

2.  Cloud based gaming is already available, although admittedly not at the scale that Microsoft seems to be aiming for with MSFS.  Nvidia GeForce Now is a service that allows you to stream full games directly to your computer, with superfast clusters at the backend doing the heavy graphical lifting. And based on reviews, it works pretty darn well. This isn't 2008, heck this isn't 2012 anymore. Cloud computing has broken through and more lightweight than some people in this thread think it is.

 

3.  The market has changed. Flight simulators were always a 'niche' product, all the way up to XP11. FSX was never given an E3 trailer, nor did it have the benefit of Youtube, Twitter and Facebook to spread the word that it exists. Times have changed. A whole new generation of tech-savvy, aviation loving children/young adults who were too young to experience FSX, too poor to experience P3d and don't have terabytes of hard drive space for XP11 are about to get their first real dose of mainstream flight simming using technology that will be the blueprint of the future. Will there be teething issues? Probably, but let's not pretend that FSX, p3D and XP11 are flawless right outside the box. Microsoft, if they are smart, will load the game up with features that make flight simulation accessible to the mainstream crowd while still attracting the purists. Although it's understandable why some people are skeptical about MS after the whole Fight debacle, this isn't the MS of 2012. MS have invested heavily in their gaming division the past 2-3 years and seem to be heading in the right direction.

A little skepticism is fine, but most of it seems to be stemmed from the fear of the unknown rather than legitimate gripes. 

Edited June 25, 2019 by A330-300

[Bert Pieke 7,584]

1 hour ago, A330-300 said:

A little skepticism is fine, but most of it seems to be stemmed from the fear of the unknown rather than legitimate gripes. 

Do not underestimate the impact of the failed Microsoft Flight project..

Many of us remember getting burned twice.. first by Microsoft cancelling FS development after FSX, and secondly by then promising us a bright future with Flight, which then also got cancelled.. Burn me twice.. and what exactly do you expect us to say now..

Edited June 25, 2019 by Bert Pieke

[Wobbie 938]

4 minutes ago, Bert Pieke said:

Do not underestimate the impact of the failed Microsoft Flight project..

Many of us remember getting burned twice.. first by Microsoft cancelling FS development after FSX, and secondly by then promising us a bright future with Flight, which then also got cancelled.. Burn me twice.. and what exactly do you expect us to say now.. 

The arrogance! So, Bert, you are obviously unaware of product lifespans. You state that you were burnt when Microsoft closed down ACES. If you had known that Microsoft was closing Aces, you would have not got involved with FSX? (for fear of 'being burnt?'. You seem tho have forgotten that we are talking about a game, nothing more. You also should be aware of business economics & have a look as to why Microsoft closed ACES Gaming Studios, as well as why they stopped development of Flight! It was not personal (to burn/anger/upset/p_ss off, etc) simmers, but it was a business decision. 

Lol, promising a bright future? It's a game, for goodness sake!  

Lol, as for the comments, ... I'll wait until... PMDG gets on board, or any other ridiculous statement, who actually cares, and yes, obviously its a money making venture, for Microsoft & ALL the developers who get involved. You people really expect Microsoft & the devs NOT to monetize the 63+million gamers & simmers out there?

I'm sure we will start getting questions/demands of guys wanting discounts because they have FSX or other add-ons. That is still coming.

So, just to remind everyone, after thousands of posts, after less than 2 minutes of a teaser video that may or may not indicate what will actually be released, when MFS is eventually released, sometime within the next 18 months, as well as a few 'official' comments by MS, thats ALL we know, apart from comments & expectations by vloggers & sim 'experts.' Sorry, no holy grail as yet!

 

[dilore 126]

5 minutes ago, Wobbie said:

The arrogance!

... It's a game, for goodness sake!  

... "I'll wait until... PMDG gets on board", or any other ridiculous statement, who actually cares...

You should not talk about arrogance 😉.

BTW, flight simming is not a game, it's a hobby that many of us have pursued for decenniums.

[Wobbie 938]

Sure it's a hobby. Playing card games is a hobby, as is playing Train Simulation games, Fishing Simulation games, as well as other 'games' from gaming studios, gaming distributors, games stores etc. So, for me, my hobby is flight sim gaming. I'm a beta tester for scenery & aircraft developers, & no matter how much lipstick you throw at the base products, it does not magically change what it is. Yes, it becomes more immersive! 

I wonder how the other train simmers & fishing simmers regard their games, or is it only us flight guys?

I suppose, at the end of the day, I'll concede & say it's a game that simulates a simulator! :-)

P.S.  I still cannot understand how we were 'burnt' within our hobby!

 

[francy25 130]

2 hours ago, dilore said:

You should not talk about arrogance 😉.

BTW, flight simming is not a game, it's a hobby that many of us have pursued for decenniums.

FSX is a video game. Stop taking it so seriously.

Let's not forget that most people use FSX/P3D/XP11 for fun, without checklist, SOP, emergencies, ecc.

In addition to that: you are still pretending to fly an airliner without a firs officer with a gaming pc, with a made in china joystick, with no training, without all that softwares and people that are necessary to fly a plane. Often even without the knowledge of how to fly.

[Wobbie 938]

Thank you, Francesco. We have forgotten that the Microsoft simns came from ACES Gaming Studios, the box says Games, it was sold in game stores. Well, it could be called a game that simulates a simulation.

Well said, and everyone one else are regarded as lessor simmers/gamers, if we do not do the PMDG/Aerosoft/what ever thing.

As the late Garry Smith said, Simmings is all about Fun, Fact & Fiction. I actually got bored with the usual point to point flying, so now I can fly, drive a car, sail a boat or submarine and even a flying saucer or spaceship. It's all about immersion. & I'm sure that the so-called experts regard me as a lessor simmer.

Just slightly off topic, sort of, we have built 2 simulators on trailors, an Avro Shackleton & an MB326 2x seter (known here in South Africa as an Impala), both using actual seats, controls etc. These fly 'by the numbers' & real pilots bump themselves in their seats anticipating touchdown, such is the immersion.

Our scenery is perfect for South Africa. AND... all this with FS2004! Will a new sim be better?   

Edited June 25, 2019 by Wobbie

[ErichB 3,638]

10 hours ago, DaWu said:

In other words you want people to stay where you can make money.

Isn't that the basis of a capitalist society?  

[ErichB 3,638]

2 hours ago, Wobbie said:

P.S.  I still cannot understand how we were 'burnt' within our hobby!

Expectation vs reality. Different people have different experiences with their simulators.  Vastly different.    I know people who sim all day (on retirement - or for reasons of disability)  For them a simulation experience is somewhat of a lifeline or a total escape from reality-  so it is important that the end product meets certain expectations.  After months of hype, its normal to feel massively let down - as in the case of Flight - or MS just cancelling FS development completely.  Those were dark days for a while.

The burn was real

 

 

Edited June 25, 2019 by ErichB

[Amon1973 1,421]

I know that us as Flight Simmers don't like to refer to our hobby as a game, to some that's all it is, i.e. my wife doesn't differ in her opinion whether I'm flying on sim, or playing a first person shooter to her they are all computer games, obviously flight simulation is a serious business to some people/businesses i.e flight schools, but mostly people, fly in the virtual world for fun, and just to make sure our wallets are emptied at regular intervals.

[francy25 130]

11 minutes ago, eaim said:

I know that us as Flight Simmers don't like to refer to our hobby as a game, to some that's all it is, i.e. my wife doesn't differ in her opinion whether I'm flying on sim, or playing a first person shooter to her they are all computer games, obviously flight simulation is a serious business to some people/businesses i.e flight schools, but mostly people, fly in the virtual world for fun, and just to make sure our wallets are emptied at regular intervals.

Let's don't mix up things: Flight Schools use certified programs for training eg my ATO used a FNTP class II sim for IFR training that could simulate from a cessna C172, PA28, PA34 up to a generic King Air for MCC. It was certified by my CAA and had a tech support 24h, 7/7.

BTW it was awful. Never flew the real King Air but I doubt it was like the rendition of that sim 😂

I agree about the fun part and also the wallet: which I think is one of the biggest problem of our community and I hope that MSFS can help to regulate the next DLCs pricings. As I said in the old thread, having addons sold via a controlled store (like Steam for example) with a pricing policy is going to help us, users. Obviously the developers were against it...(Yes, mistakes were made also by Dovetail).

 

Edited June 25, 2019 by francy25

[Wobbie 938]

8 minutes ago, ErichB said:

Expectation vs reality. Different people have different experiences with their simulators.  Vastly different.    I know people who sim all day (on retirement - or for reasons of disability)  For them a simulation experience is somewhat of a lifeline or a total escape from reality-  so it is important that the end product meets certain expectations.  After months of hype, its normal to feel massively let down - as in the case of Flight - or MS just cancelling FS development completely.  Those were dark days for a while.

The burn was real

 

 

But we cannot throw away our old toys & sulk when developers, for economic reasons, change their minds. Ongoing add-ons still keep us busy, & the constant search for the Holy Grail in simming will always be disappointing at first, with a basic engine & no add-ons. Our hype is self inflicted, really. We should all take a step back, & accept the hype for what it is, just hype, then we cannot feel massively let down. We actually spend more time debating what we dont have, than actually enjoying what we DO have.