Is ForceFeedback Fixed in FSX?

[oqvist 11]

JWenting don

[maxter 0]

Mike,>Flying is different from driving and let me know when you've>found that 'well executed FF'. ;) > Granted I don't have a lot of rw stick time (probably 12-15 hrs all up), but I do have quite a few hours in a racing car driving at speeds that was considered to be reasonably competitive.To replicate the feeling, I combine the Logitech Driving Force Pro, with the Advantage 1 three pedal set and a racing sim called rFactor. The effects produced are very good, certainly enough to provide a level of immersion much greater than that without a ff device.I take your point about the forces involved and the differences with each mode of travel, however I still feel that it's more of a case of "If you build it, they will come...".>Unless the market dynamics change or there's a true revolution>in the way FF is implemented I would not hold your breath.>Oh well, I guess it's a bit of wishful thinking then.Thanks for your view, it was much appreciated.Chris Porter:-outtaPerthWestern Australia

[Guest freff]

>I used to use FF when I was flying with a joystick, when I>switched to a yoke I was forced to give up FF since there were>(are?) no yokes with FF. FF was neat, but I really can't say>that I miss it.Same here. It would be nice if someone would build a FF yoke. The other reason I ditched the (Microsoft) FF joystick was because of the 1-2 frame per second bug that would happen when you land.

[Guest Ozark Dogfighter]

I wonder how hard it would be to mod a yoke for FF? Anyone have any ideas? I have no clue myself, heck it may not be possible even, but I'm darn curious. I personally haven't experienced a frame rate drop on landing with my FF2. I suppose I could fly with the frame display up and land to see if it drops, but I usually pay too much attention to what I'm doing while landing to bother trying to notice 1 or 2 frames dropped..-Jeremy Burchhttp://home.earthlink.net/~dawgfighter/sit...es/swvasig1.gifSWVA4806 http://www.virtualswa.com/home.phpThe Ozark Dogfighter http://forums.avsim.net/images/wedge.gifHappy Flying!BOAC: Heathrow Centre, British Airways Speedbird Flight 723HC: British Airways Speedbird Flight 723, Heathrow Centre, go aheadBOAC: Heathrow Centre, British Airways Speedbird Flight 723 has a message for youHC: British Airways Speedbird Flight 723, Heathrow Centre is ready to copy messageBOAC: Heathrow Centre, British Airways Speedbird Flight 723, message is as follows: Mayday, Mayday, Mayday ....

[maxter 0]

>I wonder how hard it would be to mod a yoke for FF? Anyone>have any ideas? I have no clue myself, heck it may not be>possible even, but I'm darn curious. Yes, I was thinking the same as I was typing my response to Mike earlier in this thread. I was wondering how one could modify a racing sim FF wheel to accept a yoke but also to add another servo/stepper motor that would provide a force affecting a pitch axis.It seemed pretty difficult, hence the lack of an appropriate offering out there I guess. A pity that Logitech who make a huge range of racing wheels as well as joysticks don't become interested.Cheers,Chris Porter:-outtaPerthWestern Australia

[oqvist 11]

Joysticks is very versatile. Yokes is only really useful for civil flight sims. Of course you can use Yokes with racing games as well but then wheels are superior.But I don

[Guest IlyaPro]

####, that means that elevator trim will not be fixed... :(

[Guest IlyaPro]

>Flying is different from driving and let me know when you've>found that 'well executed FF'. ;) I know many people swear by>FSForce but in our experience FF in a civilian flight game>never lived up to its potential. I don't think a single person>on the FS team uses a FF stick as their main input device.FSForce corrects the elevator trim issue in FS! That's why I'm using it, NOT for FF (primarily).Just want to ask, is the trim issue is ever going to be resolved in FS or Microsoft is unfamiliar with it?

[Guest tdragger]

What is the "trim issue"?

[Guest IlyaPro]

>What is the "trim issue"?Well, that's just great!And it's one of those FS Developers asks me!You really think the elevator trim in FS works like one on a real aircraft?

[Guest tdragger]

<It depends. In the aircraft I've flown the trim is changed with a wheel or crank instead of a joystick button or keyboard. (I've never had the chance to fly an aircraft with electric trim on the yoke but I suppose it would be a lot like using a CH yoke.)Regardless of the mechanism the effect on the aircraft is similar. I typically get the aircraft in the attitude I want with the joystick then use trim to reduce control pressures. You can also use trim along to make small adjustments while in cruise flight.If you're referring to something I haven't described perhaps you could supply some more details as to what you're experiencing.

[Guest IlyaPro]

><a real aircraft?>>>>It depends. In the aircraft I've flown the trim is changed>with a wheel or crank instead of a joystick button or>keyboard.I'm now talking about the trim aerodynamics, not mechanism, type of control handle or whatever! It doesn't depend on anything. >Regardless of the mechanism the effect on the aircraft is>similar.Precisely!>I typically get the aircraft in the attitude I want>with the joystick then use trim to reduce control pressures.I'm sorry, what control pressures? There are no control pressures in FS, are there?>>If you're referring to something I haven't described perhaps>you could supply some more details as to what you're>experiencing.While trimming in a real aircraft, you don't have to move the yoke at all, in FS you have to.While trimming in FS, you have to deflect the joystick opposite way or the aircraft will not balance.In FS trim acts as a second elevator. This is completely unrealistic! In a real aircraft trim just "fixes" the elevator and the yoke in the required position by providing an aerodynamic force that acts against the force of the airflow which tries to deflect the elevator. Pilot feels this as a control pressure removement, but he DOESN'T NEED TO CHANGE THE POSITION OF THE YOKE/STICK, only THE FORCE!That's what I'm referring to.Here is what Russel Dirks (FSForce author) says about this issue (maybe this explains my thoughts better to you). Emphasizing is mine (IlyaPro):---------------------------...with the MSFS trim system, while making trim changes, you had to make compensating movements of the joystick in order to maintain your current pitch attitude. In a real plane you do not have to do this, so the question is, why did you have to it with the MSFS trim system. The reason has to do with the fact that the MSFS trim system was designed for mechanical joysticks (non-FF). With a mechanical joystick the only place where you can experience no resistance (the feeling of being "in-trim") is at the center. But let's say you're flying along at cruise speed and you've got the stick pushed forward to keep from climbing. Because it is a mechanical joystick, you're having to push against the springs. Now let's say you want to trim the aircraft. The only way to "feel" in trim is to have the joystick at the center, but how are you going to get it there without going into a climb? What Microsoft did was devise a very clever system such that when you make trim changes, the flight simulator is actually shortening or lengthening the linkage between your joystick and the "virtual" elevator, to allow you to slowly bring the joystick to center while maintaining your current pitch attitude (or at least, trying to!). There is an interesting side-effect to this : by holding the joystick steady and making trim changes (under the old system) you could actually climb and descend the aircraft!! Of course you cannot do that in a real aircraft. So while you may see a trim tab visually on the exterior of the aircraft, in terms of the flight dynamics, the aircraft basically does not have one.But of course, with force feedback joysticks this is all completely unnecessary. The centering force can be positioned (via DirectX commands) anywhere within the range of motion of the joystick, not just in the center. That means you can experience the feeling of being in trim with the joystick pushed forward, or with it pulled back into your lap (at slow speeds), exactly like you would in a real plane. But sadly Microsoft never bothered to modified the simulator to take advantage of this. ---------------------------Also I would recommend to everyone in FS Team who has to deal with aircraft dynamics the next excellent book:www.av8n.comRead, understand and learn by heart :)

[Murmur 3,941]

>While trimming in a real aircraft, you don't have to move the>yoke at all, in FS you have to.>While trimming in FS, you have to deflect the joystick>opposite way or the aircraft will not balance.>In FS trim acts as a second elevator. This is completely>unrealistic! It's obvious that you don't understand there are 2 major differences between real flight controls and PC game controls (even force feedback ones) that prevent a 100% realistic trim implementation in flight simulators. That is:1) In a real plane, at high speed the forces become so great that they prevent full command excursion (without operating on the trim);2) The travel of a real cloche or yoke is much higher than that of most PC flight controllers;for these reasons, flight sims usually have to find a compromise and "split" the elevator axis and the trim axis. Otherwise, it would be even less realistic.If they (MS) tried to implement trim in the way you suggest (that is, giving a direct relationship between joystick position and elevator position), it would be even less realistic than it is now, since you would have OVERLY sensitive controls (due to short travel of joysticks), becoming even worse at higher speeds (due to insufficient force feedback to limit max joystick travel->max elevator travel).Marco

[Guest tdragger]

Ah, I see now. That's much more informative than "the trim issue". I think what you're describing has nothing to do with the aerodyamics but is a simple matter of mechanics. You see, the game does not treat FF joysticks any differently than normal joysticks with respect to how it reads axis values. So, as you add trim to achieve desired pitch you must also slowly return the joystick to the neutral position otherwise the trim would be added to the deflection. As Russell states, this is exactly the behavior you want for non-FF sticks (the vast majority of those in use) otherwise you'd be fighting the self-centering springs regardless of trim settings.(Although I'm not sure about his comment of not being able to climb or descend a real aircraft using trim, though. Seems to me I was able to do this quite readily when flying my Maule. Oh well.)So, yes, what you're asking for is to be able to remove the forces on the stick but still have it in whatever position it was in when you started applying trim, just like Russell says. But since FS doesn't distinguish between FF and non-FF it won't do this and you'll still need Russell's excellent utility (or an updated version that works with FSX).And, BTW, thanks for the pointer to the on-line aeronautics reference. I'm sure the developer who programs the flight models is familiar with the material, what with his multiple degrees in aeronautical engineering and CFI ratings, but I might find it useful!Cheers!

[n4gix 4,947]

Mike, you certainly have my respect, especially after having just read the tactless and thinly disguised insults that were thrown your way... ;) You may not be a Saint (yet), but you surely have the patience of one!