Much support for India but 0 support for the Gulf Coast.

[btacon 1,764]

Screw that Larry. This ain't about Walmart, or the Red Cross...It's about community. That's all Dillon said, that's all I'm sayin', and you can say what you want cuz I support that too.bt

[Bob Scott 7,704]

Well, at least cancer victims don't take their plight as an excuse to pillage their neighbors' homes and businesses like a mob of rampaging central-african Hutus.And, given that the death toll for cancer in the U.S. runs at something over a half-million Americans EVERY year, I'd vote for leaving things the way they are (not that I think I should have any sort of say on what Tom chooses to support on his site). But I know there are lots of sick people that'd GLADLY leave for New Orleans right now and trade places with any of those people standing around outside the Superdome if it would just give them even a fighting chance at getting their health back. Compared to what those hundreds of thousands of cancer victims are facing, the Gulf Coast hurricane is utterly insignificant. But that doesn't play well enough to sell advertising on the networks.It's all about perspective. One needs more of it than one gets from overdosing on CNN's 24/7 coverage of the spectacle of the week.Bob Scott

[Guest Charlie]

You

[Guest iandavid]

From the other side of the pond I can't believe what is happening in "The Richest Country in the World"I'm really surprised at how long it has taken the Govt to get going. For days everyone new what was going to happen, it was on the news 24hrs a day. The experts predicted quite accurately the extent of the flooding and destruction days before.Here we now are several days later and where is the US govt. The emergency planning should have gone into place before Katrina hit. Water supplies, food, helicopters, National Guard should have all been waiting ready to be flown in the minute Katrina moved on.It was as though George woke up completely surprised the day after and said " Oh look New Orleans is flooded - why is that? Oh and Dick, where is New Orleans?"The tsunami hit with NO warning, they were 3rd world countries, but unfortunately the USA appears to be in a bigger mess at the moment. Paul Gardner

[btacon 1,764]

Charlie...you assume too much.That is the sign of a fool.Cheers,bt

[btacon 1,764]

Thats a crop of crap."snipers" only make up 1-2% of the folks down there...98-99% just want to survive!What is YOUR point. bt

[Guest Jimbofly]

I agree 100% with all of that.There may not be the same number of people dead as say, the tsunami caused, but a huge number of people are still suffering greatly.James

[Dillon 2,194]

Gavin let me share something with you that many here will disagree with. I wrote this to a friend but I'll share it with you."Another thing that should be an eye opener is the sheer volume of third world poverty in American cities (which before now was largely hidden). There are a lot of people who were financially unable to get out of harms way. How can we save Iraq if we can't save ourselves??? This same scenario is playing out all across the US it

[btacon 1,764]

First of all, apologies if I have offended anyone...passion, not malice.I would like to publically thank Tom and the rest of the AVSIM crew for all they do for us individually, and as a community. There is no denying the positive impact they have on this hobby and flight simmers around the world and as a community. This topic is a dead horse, both viewpoints have had their say, and regardless of where you stand, what your opinion is, it is a good thing that we can share our opinions, freely and openly.Thanks again for the community that AVSIM is. God Bless the Gulf Coast, and God Bless AVSIM.Cheers,bt

[Bob Scott 7,704]

The problem, Paul, is that from the other side of the world, you really don't know what is happening in the U.S. "Water supplies, food, helicopters, National Guard should have all been waiting ready to be flown in the minute Katrina moved on."Yeah...and flown in to where exactly? And then once there, how does it move from the airport over destroyed or flooded road networks to where it's needed? Truth is, there were emergency service providers positioned all across an arc around the area waiting to go in...but the main transportation routes into and throughout the city were/are destroyed or disabled.It's a lot harder than you make it sound. You have to position materiel close enough to get it there quickly, but not so close it becomes a casualty of the same storm. And then you have to move it through hundreds of miles of the disaster zone to where it might be needed. People have this stupid notion that 12 hours after a region-wide disaster like this that there will be a Red Cross truck and a team of candy-stripers on every street corner."The tsunami hit with NO warning, they were 3rd world countries, but unfortunately the USA appears to be in a bigger mess at the moment."Of course you fail to give notice to the thousands of aid workers already on-scene in other...worst-hit...areas of the Gulf Coast.In a bigger mess? Geez, get some perspective. It's New Orleans, not the whole East Coast. It's one city in a nation with tens of thousands. And it's a few thousand people at risk in a nation with hundreds of millions. The truth is that despite the constantly-looping news video of what's happening in a few square miles across New Orleans, there's a real success story here, in that the governments involved correctly identified and assessed the threat and made decisions early enough to evacuate over 400,000 people from the area in a very orderly way, making this orders of magnitude less catastrophic than it would have been. They were far from sleeping at the wheel...before, during, or after the storm. George included.Now...OTOH, I do have to wonder about the 25,000 people that ignored the evacuation orders and woke up in New Orleans Tuesday morning and said " Oh look New Orleans is flooded - why is that? ..." Charles Darwin was a smart guy.Bob Scott

[tf51d 284]

"Water supplies, food, helicopters, National Guard should have all been waiting ready to be flown in the minute Katrina moved on."Yeah...and flown in to where exactly? And then once there, how does it move from the airport over destroyed or flooded road networks to where it's needed? Truth is, there were emergency service providers positioned all across an arc around the area waiting to go in...but the main transportation routes into and throughout the city were/are destroyed or disabled.It's a lot harder than you make it sound. You have to position materiel close enough to get it there quickly, but not so close it becomes a casualty of the same storm. And then you have to move it through hundreds of miles of the disaster zone to where it might be needed. People have this stupid notion that 12 hours after a region-wide disaster like this that there will be a Red Cross truck and a team of candy-stripers on every street corner.Sorry but this argument doesn't jive with the facts! As early as Tuesday, the news services was reporting the airport was open to emergency traffic only with one runway operational. Yet except for a few Coast Guard Helos the airport was deserted. Where were the C-5's, C-17's, C-130's? Where were the military Blackhawks and Hueys? Supplies could have and should have been flown in immediately and if neccessary airlifted by helicopter to atleast the designated shelters like the superdome. Instead of busing the refugees from the superdome, they could have airlifted them out and have most if not all evacuated by now. The government dropped the ball on this one big time, and someone should have to answer for it!!

[Bob Scott 7,704]

>Sorry but this argument doesn't jive with the facts! As early>as Tuesday, the news services was reporting the airport was>open to emergency traffic only with one runway operational.>Yet except for a few Coast Guard Helos the airport was>deserted. Where were the C-5's, C-17's, C-130's? Where were>the military Blackhawks and Hueys? Supplies could have and>should have been flown in immediately and if neccessary>airlifted by helicopter to atleast the designated shelters>like the superdome. Instead of busing the refugees from the>superdome, they could have airlifted them out and have most if>not all evacuated by now. The government dropped the ball on>this one big time, and someone should have to answer for it!!NO International has one runway open...but what about ramps, fuel, material handling equipment, and roads to/from the airport?Where were the planes? Keeping the air bridge open to a war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Most of the airlift base ramps have been empty for a long time.You make assumptions on the feasibility of an airlift without knowing anything about availability of aircraft, condition of the road infrastructure into/out of the field, availability of fuel and other necessary services, ramp space and condition, foreign objects and debris etc etc. And what other things is the one runway being used for? Incoming relief supplies? Rescue teams? Equipment for levee repairs?"The government dropped the ball on this one big time, and someone should have to answer for it!!"Which government? The city government that failed to maintain the levees for years (or the citizens that refused to fund them)? The State Government? The Federal Government? Hey...let's blame the UN while we're at it too!Bob Scott

[tf51d 284]

Which government? The city government that failed to maintain the levees for years (or the citizens that refused to fund them)? The State Government? The Federal Government? Hey...let's blame the UN while we're at it too!Obviously I'm talking abot the federal Government. I also blame the feds for the levees, because the amount the Army Core of Engineers requested to shore up the levees were cut by Congress. We are now paying for their short sightedness. But that's an argument for another day. Right now the focus should be on getting these people out of harms way. You say the roads may have been blocked. Ok maybe they were. They are though able to get out of the city. You mean to tell me there isn't another airport closer by that couldn't be used to airlift these people out? In a country this size I don't believe it. As I stated in the other thread, I saw C-5's and C-17's at Stewart airfield last Sunday, but just say they weren't available. Our government couldn't divert some from Iraq or Afganistan, to help out? They could have been there in less than a day!

[Bob Scott 7,704]

>Obviously I'm talking abot the federal Government. I also>blame the feds for the levees, because the amount the Army>Core of Engineers requested to shore up the levees were cut by>Congress. We are now paying for their short sightedness. But>that's an argument for another day. Right now the focus should>be on getting these people out of harms way. You say the roads>may have been blocked. Ok maybe they were. They are though>able to get out of the city. You mean to tell me there isn't>another airport closer by that couldn't be used to airlift>these people out? In a country this size I don't believe it.>As I stated in the other thread, I saw C-5's and C-17's at>Stewart airfield last Sunday, but just say they weren't>available. Our government couldn't divert some from Iraq or>Afganistan, to help out? They could have been there in less>than a day!How many of those planes were down for long-term maintenance or awaiting parts? And how many were configured for passengers rather than cargo? It's not as simple as just grabbing the first T-tail you see on the ramp.But more importantly, there are lots of possible reasons why airlift would be the less desirable of the options. Some airlift has been used to evacuate people from hospitals, and some of the worst-off from the dome (when the evacuees aren't shooting at them). Those people are in bad conditions, but I don't believe they are at risk of dying of starvation or dehydration before the help which has been sent arrives. >Our government couldn't divert some from Iraq or>Afganistan, to help out? They could have been there in less>than a day! Assuming that suitable facilities and road infrastructure were available on both ends (I don't think they were/are), it still doesn't make sense to divert scarce assets from a much more difficult lift operation (Iraq) when many other options exist and are in play for New Orleans. The troops on the ground in Iraq and Afghastlystan, who live day-to-day in conditions not much better than post-Katrina New Orleans, don't have a "bus option" to get food, ammo, and supplies to them, or to evacuate their wounded.I think "the government" is doing enough to help a bunch of people that, for the most part, couldn't be bothered to help themselves in the first place. Like you said, the news of what was coming was on 24 hours a day...those people made a choice. They chose unwisely, and any danger they are in or discomfort they are feeling is on them, not the government.Bob Scott

[tf51d 284]

But more importantly, there are lots of possible reasons why airlift would be the less desirable of the options. Some airlift has been used to evacuate people from hospitals, and some of the worst-off from the dome (when the evacuees aren't shooting at them). Those people are in bad conditions, but I don't believe they are at risk of dying of starvation or dehydration before the help which has been sent arrives.The News Services reported yesterday atleast 10 people died at the Superdome of dehydration just yesterday.