FSX and Aircraft ICE SYSTEM

[Geofa 108]

Yes- I was addressing the comment about the anti ice switch being placed in "auto" or "on" and my point was the results and how one uses it would depend on the type of plane and system used (much like the autopilot of FS which seems to follow no particular model and trys to generically satisfy both GA and jet flyers-and ends up doing neither). Of course my Baron is not known certified-but I've used the boots a few times.....(which were replaced a few years ago-luckily before I got in the partnership!).All the variables of icing would be difficult-but I'd still like to see some progress here in FS. Just the other day I was shooting some practice approaches-out of no where a bank of clouds and snow squall appeared (non forecast of course!) and I started picking a little ice on the tail only-which sublimated when the short squall vanished after about two minutes. I'd love to see an attempt at windshields suddenly icing over,icing on the wing etc.-even if not 100% perfect.By the way-I have been told "unofficially" that any time in the winter there are clouds and conditions are near enough-they will forecast icing -primarily due to law suits that would occur if they hadn't-e.g. safer to just predict icing even if not warranted than miss it and then get sued after the fact.Unfortunately, that makes flying fairly impossible for a good part of the year where I live if one were to take the predicted icing which is in almost every forecast. For me it isn't a problem as I don't fly for a living and prefer not to push my luck. But there are many cargo flyers and instructors around here where I live whose attitude is that if you believed every icing forecast, you'd never be able to fly, and a good part of the time when forecast-it is not there.On the other hand-my dentist who is also a Baron driver-was at 50 f at 5000 ft.-he started his final approach and picked up "1 of clear ice on the way down in a minute(not in the forecast)-there was a temp inversion. Luckily, he had some boots......I'd love to see some of this in Fs....Better get that efb going-I sure am loving mine!http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

>The fact is, unless your aircraft is certified for Flight Into Known Icing, you cannot legally enter conditions where it could exist, that's the regs. Of course, we all know this is impossible at times to accomplish, thus we have aircraft equipped with boots even though they may not be certified for FIKI. I'm pretty sure that your Baron is not certified for FIKI.It's interesting to note that New Piper won't sell you ice-protection equipment piecemeal. You either buy the full, approved FIKI (flight into known icing) package or nothing at all

[Geofa 108]

Some later Baron's are-mine is not. Maybe because the boots don't run from the engine nacelle to the fuselage-and I have alcohol prop and windshield vs. electric?http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

[Guest tdragger]

<>Bingo. Give that man a prize!

[Guest BlueRidgeDx]

Hi Peter,The reasoning behind the temperature range cited is based upon flight test and certification data for the airframe in question. Apparently, it just so happens that many airframes are susceptible to icing within the same general temperature limits, assuming there is visible moisture present.Aerodynamic shape greatly affects the susceptibility of an airframe to ice accumulation. For instance, in the CRJ, we don't have any anti-ice provisions on the vertical or horizontal stabilizers. These surfaces have proven to be "aerodynamically clean" during certification. But again, so there is no mistaking what I'm trying to say, insofar as the CRJ is concerned the POH clearly states: "Icing conditions exist in flight at a TAT of 10

[crvm 0]

><we thought about doing it with our Baron. Problem was, many>folks expectations that it must be "100% realistic", often>without knowing just what "100% realistic" means. >>>>Bingo. Give that man a prize! He was not refering to my question Jason since large airliner type aircraft do not have boots. Again, there is no precipitation descriminator in FS's environment so there is no way to know whether the aircraft is in dry, wet, ice, snow or rain unless you can prove otherwise? EDIT- Remember that on the Baron you do not have to worry about any anti-ice EICAS messages, one could simply model "AUTO" as "ON" ALWAYS whereas in the jet you would have to remove your eicas etc messages that the system was "ON" because that is the only way to model AUTO in the current sim so what you would be doing is giving up the visual for a work-around that is not exceptable.....................Randy J. Smith................A PROUD MEMBER OF THE PMDG BETA TEAM[h4]Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations[/h4]

[slashed2 53]

I'll agree with that. Flying with Weather maker pro in icing conditions brought my plane to a crawl and at one point the mooney stalled and I flat spun into the ground. With downloaded weather, most people probably don't even realize they are in icing conditions most of the time or would realize it if they were. I even saw posts from people on the general forum from people who hoped FSX would model the effects of icing and did not realize FS9 models it pretty well.Interesting about the baron. Maybe a professional edition could include the boots? :)Ian.

[Guest tdragger]

I think you missed my point, hence the quote.

[crvm 0]

>I think you missed my point, hence the quote.Perhaps I am still missing your point? His reply and your reply should be in regards to my post? You said "bingo" as confirmation to his reply but his statements about what can be achieved regarding simulating the anti-ice does not make it so. Again he is talking about GA aircraft not an airliner with AUTO position modelling.. ...............Randy J. Smith................A PROUD MEMBER OF THE PMDG BETA TEAM[h4]Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations[/h4]

[Guest tdragger]

His comment was to the effect of, "we could do it but people wouldn't like it and they wouldn't know why they wouldn't like it." I wasn't commenting on aircraft specifics.

[Donstim 109]

Nick is right on in terms of the definition of icing conditions for transport category airplanes. The question he was responding to was "what is the definition of icing conditions,?" not "under what conditions will ice accrete on the wing of an airplane?" The former is a generic set of atmospheric conditions (visible moisture within a certain temperature band) under which ice MAY accrete for the purpose of crew awareness and potential operation of the ice protection systems.Randy's original question has more to do with the definition of icing conditions used by the airplane designer (as guided by certification requirements and guidance) than with whether or not ice will always be present in those conditions. Automatic activation of ice protection systems in transport category airplanes is very common now, and will probably be a standard feature of any new design. How these systems work, that is, what is used as a trigger to activate ice protection, differs between airplanes. For example, for wing ice protection, most recent airplanes use a probe that is designed to accrete ice before the wing does. This is sensed, and used as a trigger to activate the wing ice protection system.An "auto" setting in an airplane that uses deicing boots is a different matter. As Randy later clarified, this is not the subject of his question.It would be nice if FS could model icing better, but don't set an unreachable goal of 100% accuracy. Even NASA's high-powered computational simulations can't get anywhere near that throughout the envelope. As an example, FS could start with a simple probabilistic model based on atmospheric moisture content, temperature, and altitude, or it could use the atmospheric icing envelopes in Appendix C of FAR 25. Then, based on some characteristics of the wing design, for example, leading edge thickness, chord length, presence or absence of wing leading edge high lift devices, some accretion affects on lift, drag, and pitching moment could be modeled. Of course, if you want more realism, you can try to model the flow trajectory and temperature profile anc accretion characteristics for different sizes and masses of water droplets.Don S.

[Guest DreamFleet]

Okay, getting back to the subject at hand..."This question is more related to the ability of modelling a certain function of an aircraft's anti-ice system. Currently in FS9 if the aircraft you want to model has an anti-ice "AUTO" position there is no way for the aircraft to "know" if it is actually in icing conditions to "activate". Is there a way for this to be addressed?"Since it is not a heavy jet, you might not own our ATR, Randy, for if you did, you would know that we CAN detect icing conditions, and while we do not show ice forming on the airframe, we do simulate the ice detection probe in the 2D panel (located outside on the left side cockpit window), and this WILL show ice accretion, when we determine weather conditions warrant it. We even have it show several levels of accretion. I should know, as I did the graphics for it, and Hans Hartmann programmed it.So, if we can do this, we already can "know" when the potential for ice exists and either simulate it or some other aspect of it such as a system for dealing with it.You can see the probe (even has a light on the forward outboard end of it it) in the photo below.I see no reason why such an "auto" feature could not be programmed right now.Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpgThe probe is just above the bottom edge of the left window.http://atr.flight1.net/images/preview/blue0001.jpg

[crvm 0]

Hey Lou, You should know I own most every aircraft of yours =P including the ATR. Interesting..................Randy J. Smith................A PROUD MEMBER OF THE PMDG BETA TEAM[h4]Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations[/h4]

[Guest DreamFleet]

"Interesting...[/1]"Indeed! :-)Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

[Guest Ron Freimuth]

>I agree with Michael as icing is a very hard thing to>predict. Other than for carb icing in a basic single I have>never seen visible icing in plus anything. Not being able to see the 'ice' in MSFS means it's harder to know when to use deice. >If MS want to truly model the effects of icing and systems to>remove or prevent it then that is fantastic. Icing is one of>the major and most unpredictable threats to flight.>If its a case of pick a number. Now you have it, now you dont>then thats a poor gimmick. >In my opinion if icing isnt realistically modelled then forget>it altogether. There are two parts to 'icing'. 'When it forms', and 'what it does'.>That includes its effect on Lift, Drag and weight as well as>effect on thrust. Other areas to consider are air friction. Ice in MSFS affects Prop efficiency, induced drag, and weight. Carb Ice affects power output, but never to the point of killing the engine. There are two kinds of Prop Deice: Boot and Heat. One has to cycle the prop boots to keep breaking the ice off. I suspect way too much, every 30 seconds or so. Unfortunately, airframe Ice can't be removed in FS9, though it worked in earlier versions. Further, airframe ice appears to only melt when SAT is above 0C. My Concorde surfaces were still hot from supersonic cruise, however, they still iced up. Both TAT and SAT are important, TAT more than SAT. FS ice appears at altitudes it is set to appear. Whether one is in a cloud or not makes no difference.>It would also be nice to see it visually modelled building up>on the airframe and blowing off with boots :-) They can do>effects with smoke why not ice.>Peter It is possible to get an idea of how much ice has built up on an FS AC. But, only in an indirect way. A saved flight has a variable in the situation file that shows the relative amount of ice on the aircraft. Possibly available through FSUIPC. Ron