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26 minutes ago, sightseer said:

Im currently very convinced it will not be subscription based because that would drive off many many customers.

If it was a subscription service, it may lose some existing flight sim users (I don't think that "many, many" would be lost) but it would then be accessible to so many more who would get access to it as part of the large library of games available from Microsoft. A number of people have said they wouldn't be interested if it was subscription-only, but how many of us already pay monthly for Amazon Prime, Netfilx, Now TV, Sky or any one of the the myriad of other subscription leisure services that are available? It would work out at about the price of a couple of coffees and muffins for a whole month's subscription! Would you really boycott it for that cost?

Edited by vortex681
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3 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

If it was a subscription service, it may lose some existing flight sim users

Five to ten percent of the total current market which will be replaced the first week by new users.

 

5 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

get access to it as part of the large library of games available from Microsoft.

Exactly.  I want to see what else is available.  I'd never buy Halo but I'd like to try it out if it were included in a subscription.  Someone mentioned Goat Simulator? 😄 In any case I intend to try MSFS by subscription first, and if it meets all my needs I'll buy it.  I thought they'd already mentioned that would be a possibility.  

There is another simulation that is fairly pricey but offers a monthly subscription.  The major advantage is that the subscription version does not require a dongle.  I probably wouldn't play it long enough for the subscription fees to exceed the purchase price.  

 

4 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

how many of us already pay monthly for Amazon Prime, Netfilx, Now TV, Sky...

Kindle unlimited, and the subscription saves me a bundle.  I pay by the month for my Internet, that's a major subscription.  I used to pay for DIrecTV.  

I have no problems with a subscription.  Besides, others in my family might want to try the other games available.

Hook

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Larry Hookins

 

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;

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45 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

A number of people have said they wouldn't be interested if it was subscription-only, but how many of us already pay monthly for Amazon Prime, Netfilx, Now TV, Sky or any one of the the myriad of other subscription leisure services that are available? It would work out at about the price of a couple of coffees and muffins for a whole month's subscription! Would you really boycott it for that cost?

If it offers something I can't get in another flight sim, and that something is important enough to me, then I'd pay a subscription.

I don't have a problem with that on philosophical grounds, but there is still the value proposition to consider. Especially for someone who isn't interested in having access to the full MS game library. I play games, but almost all are on Steam (and grudgingly, a few on the Origin and Epic storefronts). I'm not really interested in MS games.

For argument's sake -- if it's $10 USD a month subscription and I'm not interested in any MS games, that's $120 USD a year. Over a four year period that's $480 USD. I'm picking four years because that's the typical length between numbered versions of X-Plane, and that costs $60 USD every four years.

The value comparison of $480 vs. $60 over the same amount of time doesn't look very good, unless I'm getting eight times the value out of the subscription flight sim.

That might be done by including all new addon aircraft along with the subscription. For reasons already mentioned, I think that's not a practical or desirable arrangement for 3rd party developers, but it could help justify a subscription.

Another potential scheme might be a one-time purchase for the sim with basic landclass + autogen scenery, and then a subscription for fancier "live" streamed scenery. Considering what payware scenery like Orbx costs over a period of years for current sims, that might balance out about the same. And it would allow the sim to be flown by people with lousy or intermittent Internet connections. 

All of this just pure speculation, but the I think the value proposition of single-purchase vs. subscription does point out how much more value you'd probably want in a subscription-based flight sim.

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18 minutes ago, Paraffin said:

All of this just pure speculation, but the I think the value proposition of single-purchase vs. subscription does point out how much more value you'd probably want in a subscription-based flight sim.

But I think that if it's subsequently released as a take-it-or-leave-it subscription-only option, and it delivers even most of what it promises, many people here would take it - I would. I'm sure that MS realises that they will have to deliver something special if they expect people to gravitate to it from their current flight sim AND pay monthly for it.

Edited by vortex681
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6 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

But I think that if it's subsequently released as a take-it-or-leave-it subscription-only option, and it delivers even most of what it promises, many people here would take it - I would. I'm sure that MS realises that they will have to deliver something special if they expect people to gravitate to it from their current flight sim AND pay monthly for it.

Many here might go for it, yes.

I think the biggest hurdle for a subscription-based sim is that it can't possibly have a large selection of aircraft to fly on first release. It will take a while to build out a fleet of decently modeled default aircraft, plus whatever ends up as 3rd party payware.

If it turns out to be a subscription model, then many people might wait to start those monthly fees until their favorite aircraft is added. Or at least their favorite general class of aircraft. Personally, I'd love to fly a free demo just to get a small taste, but I'm not sure I'd start a monthly subscription if the initial release doesn't include at least one helicopter. 🙂


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18 hours ago, Paraffin said:

...but I'm not sure I'd start a monthly subscription if the initial release doesn't include at least one helicopter.

MS have got a lot to do to produce even a half realistic helicopter model. Even the best PC helicopters (probably DCS) are still some way from the real thing.


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19 hours ago, Paraffin said:

For argument's sake -- if it's $10 USD a month subscription and I'm not interested in any MS games, that's $120 USD a year. Over a four year period that's $480 USD. I'm picking four years because that's the typical length between numbered versions of X-Plane, and that costs $60 USD every four years.

It is quite good value for P3D owners on the professional license!

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The best part about this for people complaining about possible pricing?

 They don’t have to buy it 

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4 hours ago, vortex681 said:

MS have got a lot to do to produce even a half realistic helicopter model. Even the best PC helicopters (probably DCS) are still some way from the real thing.

It's true that current helicopter models are not fully realistic, although DCS and XP do a much better job (IMO) with internal code, compared to FSX/P3D which requires outside code to get anywhere close. 

Another big hurdle for realism is on the user side, especially concerning joysticks that don't have the movement range and  lack of centering needed for smooth flying. No force feedback either (for most of us). At least on the software side it keeps improving. We now have retreating blade stall in XP, and both XP and DCS model mast bump for 2-blade types.

I don't expect the new MFS to be better than what XP and DCS are doing, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that a MFS helicopter at least match the quality of these current models. It won't be a state-of-the-art sim otherwise.

They could also do the world of helicopter sim fans a favor by bringing back force-feedback joysticks. It would be great to feel the onset of VRS through the stick, instead of having to see it with visual cues (by which time it might be too late for an escape maneuver).


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As long as we don't have that ugly behaviour of FSX/P3D in which to go at cruise speed you need to use a ton of torque and pitch the helicopter down to an unrealistic angle because helis in those sim have a tendency to fly to the sky.

But considering that they haven't shown a heli so far, i would expect some to come as DLCs soon or later, who knows. Or maybe they will be in the base game already by the time we know something more about it (august or later)

Edited by france89

Chock 1.1: "The only thing that whines louder than a jet engine is a flight simmer."

 

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I really don't have any objections regarding the Subscription Model, quite on the contrary.

And, I am actually more supportive of "closed-circuit" projects, like for instance IL-2 Great Battles or War Thunder, where practically none, or just a few 3pd developers are allowed, or t most a model like that of DCS World, with developers being filtered as much as possible.

That's why I was also very enthusiastic about MS FLIGHT... 

 

 

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8 hours ago, vortex681 said:

MS have got a lot to do to produce even a half realistic helicopter model. Even the best PC helicopters (probably DCS) are still some way from the real thing.

So are planes to be fair, outside of systems at least. 

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The best thing a subscription would bring I think is a regular stream of updates. That’s what I like about the current adobe model - there is regularly new stuff being added and performance tweaks. I guess this is what comes with a more regular revenue stream. 

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2 minutes ago, Superdelphinus said:

The best thing a subscription would bring I think is a regular stream of updates. That’s what I like about the current adobe model - there is regularly new stuff being added and performance tweaks. I guess this is what comes with a more regular revenue stream. 

For a company like Microsoft, yes. Not so much for Lockheed Martin or Laminar Research, which don't depend on the sales of home PC flight sims to stay in business. LR manages continuing updates and performance tweaks for XP, while only getting a cash injection every four years or so. LM also manages to update P3D, although with less of a constant "work in progress" mode than XP.

But Microsoft is different. That company could subsidize its flagship flight sim with sales from its other divisions, but it hasn't worked like that in the past (waves goodbye to ACES team). The main benefit of a subscription would be that they wouldn't have to be so concerned about locking up all the addon sales internally like they did with Flight. With subscription income, they could offer generous terms for 3rd parties to sell through an MS storefront, or even sell independently. 


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3 hours ago, Paraffin said:

 The main benefit of a subscription would be that they wouldn't have to be so concerned about locking up all the addon sales internally like they did with Flight. With subscription income, they could offer generous terms for 3rd parties to sell through an MS storefront, or even sell independently. 

To be more precise the subscription model  simply helps in one process. You have less a do or die situation. After you have financed the first stage of a game they simply have to fight for themselves. If they win more playtime they simply have a bigger budget for the next step andf if they don't earn so much they simply have a smaller budget.

But I expect that the company by itself is not ready to really subsidize anything. They might subsidize the whole operations in the beginning til there is a base level of subscribers, but I am pretty sure otherwise the teams know the rules and they have to decide for themselves how they will react to bigger and smaller budgets. A big advantage of the subscription model is that they don't have to pay for the complete development, they only finance the first stage and then everything depends on the team and its success. The biggest problem for the complete subscription model is that they meet a base level of subscribers.

The buyer by himself can not really decide if he wants to be a part of the subscription model. The big difference is that they don't prefinance triple A titles anymore, They simply work how prereleases worked on steam. Every title has the chance to become a triple A title It simply depends on the success of the prerelease. If they sell a single license for their game on  steam or in the Microsoft store this is simply a part of their earnings. What the teams do with this money its their decision. In reality Microsoft has cancelled at the moment every known triple A games project.

But I expect all the teams will try to get on XBox as fast as possible since Google will have its own subscription service and it is not sure if gamers will become a part of both subscription models. But on X-box they have already a subscription service. So I expect that after their first release they will put a huge portion of their earnings in the development of the X-Box version.

But I get the feeling that many people here have not really recognized what the situation is and Microsoft Flight Simulator

will be a triple A title. But you must not expect a finished triple A title.They get a much smaller budget and everything after that they have to earn for themselves..

The huge advantage for the company are steady earnings and they have less risky triple A titles. They only finance the first release but not the complete game. So I expect tha6t the teaser mainly sold most of its money shots. Yes we have the complete planet, but not in the quality that some people expected. I think huge parts of the world will be simply on an FSW+ model. But with the current expectations this would be a problem for many people who base their expectations on this trailer.

And the explanation that there will be a chance for third party companies. In reality it was less a question if there will be an SDK, but how big will the SDK be and what are the conditions for third party developers.

Edited by Longranger

Karsten Schubert

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