July 11th development update

[Guest]

2 hours ago, dtrjones said:

You can infer it from Microsoft's own text "We are supporting 3rd Party Content Development and Community Content creation.".

Remember a Software Developer Kit is a set of tools not necesserily an API although that should be expected as well.

Now that is what I call an astute observation of the facts.

Well done Mr dtrjones.

[LHookins 3,103]

2 hours ago, dtrjones said:

You can infer it from Microsoft's own text "We are supporting 3rd Party Content Development and Community Content creation.".

Exactly.

An internal SDK had to exist before any content could be created, even content created internally by Microsoft.  What we didn't know initially was if the SDK would be released outside Microsoft.  

The "supporting 3rd Party Content Development" means the SDK would be available to developers and "Community Content creation" means the SDK will be released to the public.

Hook

[elmar01 11]

A question for you all,

When Microsoft says "We are aware of the concerns in the current eco-system and are working to address them." - What exactly do they mean by this?

[LHookins 3,103]

It means what they said in the preceding sentence:  "We are supporting 3rd Party Content Development and Community Content creation."  People were wondering if there would be third party content.

Hook

[Krakin 5,765]

5 hours ago, elmar01 said:

A question for you all,

When Microsoft says "We are aware of the concerns in the current eco-system and are working to address them." - What exactly do they mean by this?

They might be talking about what happened with FSW

[simbol 5,819]

On 7/20/2019 at 11:55 PM, LHookins said:

Exactly.

An internal SDK had to exist before any content could be created, even content created internally by Microsoft.  What we didn't know initially was if the SDK would be released outside Microsoft.  

 

This is not entirely accurate, you can build a full game or application without any SDK being produced..

An SDK is not essential and it would not preclude any game developer from delivering the final product, in fact most of the time an SDK is built when the final product is ready as this way you can provide access to libraries that already exist internally in the game, it also allows to test if the SDK works as expected as you cannot test it while you are still building the final product.

Typically games are not developed using any SDK provided to 3rd party content providers, instead Game developers will use low level source code as it provides more powerful tools, etc., the SDK is a set of tools for 3rd party content providers in order to access certain areas or specifics libraries to inject extra content or functionalities to the main Game, in the case the Simulation.

S.

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by simbol

[LHookins 3,103]

The "SDK" includes the documentation and specialized tools necessary to build any content for any game.  The INTERNAL SDK (which is what I was talking about) is the documentation and specialized tools the developers use to build the content.  Without the documentation, how would they know how to build anything?  Even if everything was done by a single person, he'd have documentation so he could keep track of everything he needed to know.

How much could you do if the documentation for the API didn't exist?  If a text file needs to be "compiled" it needs a compiler.

Certain games can be created using not much more than 3DSMax and the C++ development system and a graphics program.  This is not one of those.  Even then you need documentation on any file formats used by the game.  That is what goes into the SDK.

The SDK is not just a product released outside the studio.  It is also the internal tools and documentation necessary to create the application.

I'm not a "commercial member," just a guy with over 4 decades of development experience.

Hook

Edited July 22, 2019 by LHookins

[LHookins 3,103]

2 hours ago, simbol said:

This is not entirely accurate, you can build a full game or application without any SDK being produced..

Let's see if I can explain it a bit better.

Microsoft is likely using third party developers. Those developers need documentation and possibly tools.  Those tools and documentation are the SDK.

Even if no third party developers are involved, Microsoft will still have several teams working on various parts of the project.  These teams will need documentation.  This documentation is the "internal SDK."

An individual or small development group doesn't need much documentation, and it may be little more than a few pages of notes and the header files.  A large team working on a large project needs documentation.  This is a large team working on a large project.

Hook

[simbol 5,819]

1 hour ago, LHookins said:

Let's see if I can explain it a bit better.

Microsoft is likely using third party developers. Those developers need documentation and possibly tools.  Those tools and documentation are the SDK.

Even if no third party developers are involved, Microsoft will still have several teams working on various parts of the project.  These teams will need documentation.  This documentation is the "internal SDK."

An individual or small development group doesn't need much documentation, and it may be little more than a few pages of notes and the header files.  A large team working on a large project needs documentation.  This is a large team working on a large project.

Hook

People are discussing the so called SDK for 3rd party content developers. This cannot be completed at this stage since they are still developing the simulator, neither we can know how deep or not it will be in comparison with the P3D and XP currently SDK.

We cannot really know and guess how MS developers methodology works, however giving my little knowledge in video game development, what you call internal SDK is nothing else than a project documentation or the “history line".

Normally large projects development like this one really involve many teams, each with their own set of goals, methods and tools, although there is a common framework for the project, there is not really a Software Development Kit (SDK) per say, specially because everything is changing as they write new sections of the engine.

S.

[LHookins 3,103]

I can't believe that at this late date there is still angst over "SDK!! SDK!!!" when it was never necessary in the first place.  This is my whole intent in what I wrote, and I've described it more fully elsewhere.

Whatever the third party developers are using is not the final form the SDK will be when it is released to the general public.  The nature of documentation during development is that it has to be updated as changes are made.  But an SDK already exists.

For those who prefer having the angst, knock yourself out.  But don't bring everyone else down.  Thanks in advance.

Hook

 

[simbol 5,819]

44 minutes ago, LHookins said:

But an SDK already exists.

How you know? Because you say so?

Having a SDK for 3rd party content developers for a simulator that isn't finished yet is like asking a chicken to exist without the egg..

You need to finish the Sim before providing any 3rd party provider something to integrate into it, simply basic rule of software engineering.

S.

[RamonB 449]

4 hours ago, LHookins said:

But an SDK already exists.

Hook is correct.

Some type of SDK (even tools and guidelines) must already exist, or else whoever is working with Microsoft would be unable to develop whatever they are developing. (Scenery, Airplanes, ATC, Airports, Autogen, Weather, etc.)

Even non essential teams (even from MS) developing other parts of the Flight Simulator have to be working with some sort of an SDK. It might not be a final version, but something must already exist. Or else the project would be stalled.

 

3 hours ago, simbol said:

Having a SDK for 3rd party content developers for a simulator that isn't finished yet is like asking a chicken to exist without the egg.. 

You need to finish the Sim before providing any 3rd party provider something to integrate into it, simply basic rule of software engineering. 

Who was first: The Chicken or the Egg?

Non primary 3rd party developers, will probably have to wait for Microsoft to invite them, set the rules and or the final release.

Edited July 23, 2019 by RamonB

[Paraffin 2,197]

9 minutes ago, RamonB said:

Hook is correct.

Some type of SDK (even guidelines) must already exist, or else whoever is working with Microsoft would be unable to develop whatever they are developing. (Scenery, Airplanes, ATC, Airports, Autogen, Weather, etc.)

Even non essential teams developing other parts of the Flight Simulator have be working with some sort of an SDK. It might not be a final version, but something must already exist. Or else the project would be stalled.

Who was first: The Chicken or the Egg?

Non primary 3rd party developers, will probably have to wait for Microsoft to invite them, set the rules and or the final release.

Devil's Advocate question:

What if MS has no internal studio of their own in Redmond working on this, and they''re just hiring a single outside developer -- ASOBO -- to make the entire initial release. What if they're telling ASOBO, in effect: "make us the new Microsoft Flight Simulator, and we'll be the publisher integrating it into Xbox and the PC." 

In that case, it would be a normal single studio process where the SDK intended for 3rd parties would come much later, after release.

Again, just a Devil's Advocate alternative to thinking this is some huge distributed effort with MS Game Studio at the center of it all. It sure would be nice to know how this is actually being developed, and we'll know more about that eventually. Right now, too many guesses are being made, including mine. 

[LHookins 3,103]

1 hour ago, Paraffin said:

In that case, it would be a normal single studio process where the SDK intended for 3rd parties would come much later, after release.

No one ever said or implied that a polished SDK intended for public release was already a finished product.  But some form of SDK is necessary to do any development.

Thanks RamonB.  What I wrote was for the general public.  Developers should already know all this stuff.  I'm glad someone found it useful.

Hook

[simbol 5,819]

I think we keep going in circles here, you don't write an SDK to build a game, you build a game from scratch, coding directly in low level language, the most common combination is C++, XNA Framework, etc, integrated with OpenGL, DirectX, etc.

Go and have a look at the XP developers blog, it will show an insight how the process works.

Game developers don't use high level coding interfaces AKA SDK, it is not good for performance and it offers very limited options to create new rendering results. This is eve more critical when creating a word simulator in comparison with a phone / tablet video game or an accounting application.

In any case people in the forums are interested in the public SDK, how MS works internally is irrelevant as long as they deliver what people are looking for.

Regards 

S.

Edited July 23, 2019 by simbol