Is it wrong to install P3D v4 on Local disk (C:)???

[SteveW 1,792]

1 hour ago, Christopher Low said:

As I have pointed out to Steve in private conversations, I have always installed FSX and P3D into the relevant Program Files foilder. I have never had any problems modifying files of any kind, and I have never had to install/run/save anything as an administrator.

Ever.

I think about ten times now 

[SteveW 1,792]

It is still possible that some addon requires admin access, not because it needs Permission to write to a file, but instead might need access to a protected part of the registry, or a protected resource.

In those case we must run as admin. In general Programs do all the admin requirements during the installation, like P3D, then only need be run as User from there on in. If they don't it is because they always need admin access like for example Nvidia Profile Inspector.

That's how professional P3D installations are done so that the logged on user is a member of the P3D users group. They have settings in their private folders so P3D comes up different depending on who logs in.

It is siimple NT engineering.

[SteveW 1,792]

If your Windows is secure, and you got typical addons that go in the program folder and write out to files, do you:

tick the box, once in the lifetime of P3D

or

do you go down the partition, drive, UAC, Run as admin, check every addon installation, route

?

 

I'll tick the box please Michael!

(refers to old GB TV show)

[emko 15]

When I bought my current rig, I had only one SSD. So I installed it to the default folder (C:\Program Files...). When I bought another SSD (specifically for games) I moved the whole directory and made a junction (https://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/278262-mklink-create-use-links-windows.html) so the system still thinks its on the disk C although it physically is not. Not a single problem because of this.

[SteveW 1,792]

48 minutes ago, emko said:

When I bought my current rig, I had only one SSD. So I installed it to the default folder (C:\Program Files...). When I bought another SSD (specifically for games) I moved the whole directory and made a junction (https://www.sevenforums.com/tutorials/278262-mklink-create-use-links-windows.html) so the system still thinks its on the disk C although it physically is not. Not a single problem because of this.

That's good. It is an expert setting, emko knows what he is doing, so use with care if it is your first time with those.

[SteveW 1,792]

Just to be clear:

 There is nothing wrong with installing P3D or FSX on their own drive or wherever we like. It is only the possibilities of problems that expand when we do that. Ensuring access for the Users group is a simple step that in the least is a precaution worth implementing. Wherever you put the simulator.

[SteveW 1,792]

Oh yeah. On a professional system, the Users group would likely not be used since it gives access to all authenticated users. That's OK on our own personal systems no need to go over the top. That group is installed for us for the purpose.

In a commercial development environment, there may be a secret new simulator group where I have access and you do not and there is also the old simulator group where we all get access.

 

[MaDDogz 242]

2 hours ago, SteveW said:

 

 

I'll tick the box please Michael!

(refers to old GB TV show)

Are you referring to HOTSPOT? 😄

[SteveW 1,792]

  It was maybe Open the box, or something like that.

[SteveW 1,792]

We had some accountant's program, from pre XP that kept a cust database of some sort. Attempt to relocate it failed since a hard written folder couldn't be relocated. I set up a group with Modify Access and all was good, didn't even think about it back then on NT systems that was normal..

So we can't point fingers after this came about because it was kind of unexpected for a lot of development. There could be modules, say from trainers, that are better left working the way they were designed, which was to read write files in their folder.

Making the new drive or folder works only because it is owned by that user and has automatic access, whether admin or not. Other users accounts don't get access and admins need special permission.

Permission problems? Give the permission.

Privilege problems? Elevate the privilege.

 

The TV show I was a kid round Grandma's.

They had a 4:3 B&W display, it was around 405 lines with a vertical sync and interlaced images to combine in a nice effect.

There was a stage with some shallow steps and a row of locked boxes along the side. Some boxes are empty, some boxes have tickets for a cruise in the Med, another may have a voucher for a nice silverware tea service.

A compere called Michael (I think) would welcome up a little old lady, in a heavy warm overcoat and hair-net, clutching a handbag.

She was asked a few questions which allowed her to climb the stairs, and eventually the outcome was to choose a box or accept some cash.

So the compere says Thirty pounds or Open the box, and she says I'll open the box please Michael.

He increases the offer, £50, nope she says. Then he offers £70 and the crowd goes OOHH! And she thinks about it. But opens the box.

Anyway, back to work gentlemen!

 

Edited July 23, 2019 by SteveW

[Cruachan 705]

2 hours ago, SteveW said:

A compere called Michael (I think) would welcome up a little old lady, in a heavy warm overcoat and hair-net, clutching a handbag.

Hi Steve,

I believe you are thinking of “Take Your Pick”. The first version of the show (1955-1968) was hosted by Michael Miles on ITV.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Take_Your_Pick!

Regards,

Mike

[SteveW 1,792]

Thanks Mike. Well, I was just a kid. Didn't watch much tv, was out and about causing riot and consternation.

 

Remember I said some programs want to be admin like Nvidia Profile Inspector, things like that make system settings.

So a program might like to change the Paint or add a Paint in a folder say:

C:\Program Files\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4\SimObjects\Airplanes\Mooney_Bravo

Can't write to there since the user does not have Modify permission.

What can the program do?

One way is to elevate privileges when the paint is applied to the folder, the User OK's to it doing the modification.

Or the program raises privileges when run so it can feely copy files around at any time. There are more complicated ways for secure systems.

 

Basically we are changing system files when we change them in the simulator program files. Wind the clock back to when no one cared about that and we have programs that save their settings there.

Now we see the user folders in use:

C:\Users\you\AppData\Roaming\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4

C:\Users\you\AppData\Local\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4

and the folder for all users:

C:\Users\All Users\Lockheed Martin

On your home PC is actually:

C:\ProgramData\Lockheed Martin

 

 

Notes:

P3D installs these folders:

C:\Users\you\AppData\Roaming\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4
C:\Users\you\AppData\Local\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4
C:\Users\you\Documents\Prepar3D v4 Add-ons
C:\Users\you\Documents\Prepar3D v4 Files
C:\Users\you\Pictures\Prepar3D v4 Files
C:\Program Files\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4
C:\ProgramData\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4

P3D can be de-installed and renaming these files old will allow a completely fresh install with all the old settings and addons xmls saved in the old, but no file changes in the new.

A fresh install means fresh, so scenery will need a proper install, while some addons can be copied right out of the addons folder we made old:

C:\Users\you\Documents\Prepar3D v4 Add-ons old

So long as we know what they do

 

 

Edited July 23, 2019 by SteveW

[FS++ 707]

Installing to default folder is perfectly OK, and you can get around permissions issues by simply setting "Prepar3D.exe" to run as admin, without disabling Windows UAC.

If you happen to have more than one drive, best to install to that one (assuming enough required space is there for future expansion).

Because Windows needs to occasionally write files to temporary folders (in C drive by default), and also manage the swap file, it would reduce the need for disk head to keep moving between sectors while scenery file reading is in progress and Windows happens to need to write to C drive simultaneously.

 

[SteveW 1,792]

The bottom line for me is that users should be able to install an addon and away they go.

Why be forced to run as admin when we need not. I hate that.

Why be recommended to relocate the natural install when it need not be.

99% of problems stem from misinterpretation of all that razzmatazz.

It's not fair to misrepresent the way stuff works we don't run Word as admin.

 

[SteveW 1,792]

19 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

As I have pointed out to Steve in private conversations, I have always installed FSX and P3D into the relevant Program Files foilder. I have never had any problems modifying files of any kind, and I have never had to install/run/save anything as an administrator.

Ever.

Just returning to this because this is what most folk find that they install FSX or P3D and don't know what on earth all the fuss could possibly be about.

It's about those that did find problems. They discovered they had an addon in the Sim folder with access problems saving plans and settings there.

 

What I remember back then is users went about looking for a solution and found that they could make a folder or use another drive, and the addon started saving plans and settings OK. That's because the user owns the folder, automatic access, voila.

It worked but unfortunately was not the solution they were ideally looking for, because it only worked for that user. The real answer, and a lot smarter, was the tick in the box (Modify Allow, Users) but they had not the experience in NT.

Folk started organising themselves to make the drives and partitions. Around then SSDs and a big Hard disk per PC, off the shelf was becoming the norm. So the FSX drive was born.

Even so, the tick in the box was being used to better effect since before the start of all that razzmatazz, with more reliable systems and addons finding FSX where they expected to be, and so on and so forth.

 

In the long run, it is better to relocate appropriate parts of FSX or P3D rather than the program itself. Sexier too.

 

Given that we don't need to run as admin and we don't need to relocate, and we don't need a private folder, and we don't need to tick the box (Modify).

Why does the problem come about? Because someone put something there that cannot write to a read only folder.

 

Chris,

You never use any kind of razzmatazz as  you say. Either you don't have one of those apps or planes stored in the P3D folder with user settings or plans, or if you do you never saved a setting or plan since they can only write there with Modify access.

That can be inherited from a parent folder, or you may have run an app that set it, or the version of Windows had modify set for you initially like Windows XP.

There's lots of reasons why you never ran into that situation. Hopefully you never will.

However, I would rather have an explanation for it. I would fancy a view of the permissions list on your P3D folder! That would be nice to see, then I might explain more adequately in your case.

Edited July 24, 2019 by SteveW