A scary New World

[Guest]

Well, it IS the DEMOCRATIC PEOPLES' republic of Korea, so they're bound to be democratic :-haloWasn't it the same in Poland under Comrade Jaruzelski? The government making sure everyone made use of his democratic right to vote for him every few years?

[Guest Philip Olson]

I'm with you Vin, I too have thought that it is great that this thread has been allowed to go on. I also think it's great that for the most part everyone has been extremely civil and there isn't any of the usual BS that goes along with political discussions. It does feel like a bunch of guys BSing in a hanger. I guess a big thanks goes out to John, I am sure he is watching us closely. :-) Donny, really I do share exactly the same concerns as you, in fact when it comes to personal liberty I am pretty close to a libertarian and you know how fanatical they are. :-) It's just that given the current circumstances I see no other way of handeling this mess. I have thought a lot about this in the past few days, thanks to you, and the only way to really understand it is to put yourself in the situation. I ask myself how would I like it if I were locked up for some questionable charge right now in the guise of protecting the country and ultimately I have to say that I would accept it. Oh I would fight it like ####, trying to clear my name but ultimately I would see that such actions are helping to keep my family and the country I love safe. Please don't take my psuedo acceptance as any kind of weakness in my love of liberty because I am the type who would have taken up arms against the British and still would today, I just don't see another way. I am sure that we as a nation can do better, we should be able to figure out a way to stay safe but keep our liberties in tact. I am sure that we have improved since all this started. How does one fight an enemy such as this? All of my political view points aside, how does a President keep his people safe, what would you do if you were in the White House? I keep asking myself the same question, there is no easy answer. It really is a no win situation because either way you go you lose something. Anyway I salute all of you of think about and discuss this, it is what makes our country great. Think about how many countries out there lock people up all of the time, without cause, and no one says a thing. You are great Americans, or humans in general, even if you don't share the same (correct :-) ) viewpoint as mine. Best Regards,Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

[Gavin 99]

>Well, it IS the DEMOCRATIC PEOPLES' republic of Korea, so>they're bound to be democratic :-halo>>Wasn't it the same in Poland under Comrade Jaruzelski? The>government making sure everyone made use of his democratic>right to vote for him every few years?Indeed. You could vote for any of the representatives that the Polish United Workers Party approved to stand in the elections. Strangly enough most of them were from the ruling party, though, to be fair, there were a few other parties to choose from. All allied to the ruling party though ;-)http://online.vatsimindicators.net/916312/3.png

[RFields5421 1]

Philip, Kevin,I don't see how you could take my statement as "soft" on terrorism. I have not only battled terrorism in the field with a gun in my hand and bullets flying against me - I have also sent my son into combat to fight terrorism.This country has laws and a constitution. Our leaders should not be permitted to define a class of citizens and strip them of their rights without recourse or providing justification.At least a really bad dude and his murderous cohorts created laws to allow their heinous actions.When the executive branch of the government says:"We will detain anyone we choose without warrants, without proof, without justification to a court of law.We will deny any US CITIZEN we choose access to lawyers, friends, family, the court system. We will take that person's liberty and freedom - he will disappear from the face of the earth until we decide in a secret tribunal whether he lives or dies.Because we say so - this US CITIZEN has no rights and we don't have to justify that decision in accordance with the laws of the United States of America and the oath of office we have sworn."I see no where that terrorism is a qualification for the executive branch of government choosing to destroy the consitution.Sorry, Kevin, the people of the United States did not vote in 2004 to give the administration the full right to ignore the laws of the United States.There are plenty of ways to obtain the desired results. I never said these people should be allowed to go free. I never said they should not be confined. I never said they were not a threat to this country.All I said is that the laws and the constitution of the United States should apply equally to all citizens.If the Congress and the President feel the threat is sufficient to create an Official Secrets Act - let them do so.I've long felt that type legislation should be in effect in the United States - though about three members of the current Cabinet would be in jail right now if we had such an act - for their actions going back to the Nixon administration.Defining a class of citizens with no or fewer rights than other citizens is what millions of men, and some women, have fought against several times around the world.They are still fighting today to bring freedom to another country.Taking those freedoms away from US citizens without due process of the law is an insult to them and the memory of those who have died and those who have fought.We've fought to keep a country free where "All men are created equal" and now find the greatest threat to that principle is our own government.Maybe the right wing consipiracy nuts were right.We know our country has done wrong in the past - that is no justification to do it again.This argument / discussion / thread has nothing to do with terrorism or the fight against terrorism.It has everything to do with whether or not the leaders of this country, the United States, respect and will defend our constitution and laws.In this case the answer appears to be NO.

[Guest beana51]

Hi Mr. Fields,Eloquent comments.Who would argue with you.Mom,Flag, Apple pie,the Constitution the core and essence of our society.I'm sure that Hank, Joe, Jane, Max and Mary can count on that.Taxpayers,voters,raising a family,struggling,helping neighbors in turmoil,are not the people we speak of.But rather its the lawbreaker smuggling Heron,a person with plastic explosives in their shoe,attempting to board an airliner,an other type person with a suitcase,to be used for a dirty bomb.These kind of people pose a catastrophic threat to the rest of us ,and they do forfeit all rights because of the enormity of the crime they would committ.Thats my opion. We are not talking about a shoplifter,or a car thief.Questions and information must be gotten,quickly to avert a possible terrorist attack being planed or on going. Our sensitivity made to these freedoms could have been a factor in the recent major attack on the US.The fear of violating someones rights became ,more important that the rights of the many.Have you been to an airport lately,wheelchair bound people being searched,children being searched,and yes people who look like they should be searched are.Small price we pay for our safety, and security.Are our rights violated? Maybe,but what would or could you do.Those of us who carried weapons may have shot first,question latter.We law abiding citizens do not have that power to make split sec. designs.We rely on others.Some we chose,others appointed. I'm sure many of us come from a simpler time,referred as that generation.We were tempered by the depression,grew up and witnessed many threats to our country made adjustments,survived, then corrected the mistakes.For very many too late,for their job was finished,some where in the world.I respect where your coming from.I pray and wish your boy well.I got a bunch of kids and an ever growing stack of grand kids.It is they who are on my mind. What I truly take issue with is your characterization of some people,Americans,With the same rights we have as "RIGHT WING NUTS" Now I heard of LEFT WING NUTS,and even run into some "WING NUTS" it is they,those "WING NUTS" who are truly dangerous. Regards to you Sir,Stay well VINPS speaking of wing nuts ,I'll go and check mine

[Guest Philip Olson]

Hey Reggie, First I want to take issue with one thing that you said and then I'll comment on the rest. I would beg to differ that this discussion has nothing to do with terrorism, it is because of terrorism that we rae discussing this and it is because of terrorism that the government is doing what it is. I know, it is a fine line but it is cause and effect. Ok, on to the more important points. Mainly thank you for your service and your sons service, we all owe you a debt of gratitude that is never properly paid to any service member. Those who serve give so much more than most people will ever know, we owe you. I'll agree that drafting some new laws would be beneficial to protecting us against terrorists and I hope that some good ones will be created with some teeth. We do have a serious problem though, if the terrorists or suspected terrorists where held under our current laws the danger to our country would still be great. Look at how lawyers and judges have found and created loop holes for everything, most of our laws have no teeth anymore. I would say that a good percentage of those held are a danger to the US and I can promise that a vast majority of them would go free in no time if they were held under out current lax laws. It enrages me to see our laws continue to mean less and less as time goes on, our laws used to mean something and would actually protect normal decent citizens but not anymore. Time after time I see the courts make the victim the guilty party and vice versa, can you trust out families and country to such a lax judicial system? I hate to say all of this but until the law means something again I can not trust these muderous terrorists to be afforded the same rights that I enjoy. I would be so much happier if we could keep our nation safe by following the Constitution to the letter but our judicial system has made a mockery of that very document. Our system of government is not perfect and probably will never be so at times we will have to operate in a manner that may not be consistant with the Constitution but still be in the best intrests of this nation and it's principle of freedom. I guess that what I fear is that if we grant due process and full access to the law to many of these detainess they will be roaming free on our streets in no time flat. Can anyone here promise me that will not be the case? All it would take is the wrong one or two people to be released and we may see another 9/11 or worse. It pains me to take this stance but under the current system we can not allow some of these people to have due process. In a normal war things would work out fine, we would meet them on the battle field and they would be shot in battle, but these people are trying to hide in our cities and blend in until they can kill as many innocents as they can, they may even count on our lax laws. Look at how many were here illegally to begin with. Well that is enough for now, I look forward to your reply, or any other commentary. Again Reggie thanks so much for serving and speaking your mind.Best Regards,Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

[Guest Shalomar]

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!It is a common misconception to link Democracy with Capitalism and Comunism with dictatorships. In the purest sense they are economic models and forms of government.The Soviet Union was never 100% Communist, nor has the United States ever been 100% capitalistic. There are Heinz 57 varieties of both.It is ironic that Communism is regarded as intrinsically ungodly, the earliest references to it I know of are in the New Testament! "They were all together, and no one said that the things he had were his own, but they had all things in common." The earliest example of an actually democratic Communist system was in America, and it failed miserably. The settlers were starving, then they got together and peacably switched to a system where results mattered more than effort and skills and quality were profitable, while remaining democratic. The flaw with Marx's thinking, in addition to the obvious ones the early American settlers found, was that those who lead the revolution and should distribute the wealth tend to get sticky fingers and hold on to the power. It is also a misconception that the Comunist bloc marched in lockstep, there was such serious tension that when cosmonauts were told there was trouble with guidance, they replied "Just keep us the XXXX out of China." The Soviet Union did not order North Korea to invade the south, but they could no more fail to support them than Tony Blair could tell Bush, "Your intelligence is flawed."A CIA report said the greatest failure of the Vietnam War was to treat it as an attack by a foreign nation, rather than a civil war. With a growing number of Iraqi's killing their countrymen, maybe that's yet another parralel.In the interest of fighting Communism, and guaranteeing acces to resources, the United States has made many unsavory friends, never learning from its previous mistakes. Batista was a brutal dictator, but not a communist. So we supported him, then Castro looked good to Cuba.There was real hope among the American people when Carter visited that the Shah would be admonished. Carter followed the State Department protocol, as you know. When the Shah requested entry into the US for medical treatment, Carter was told, "You can not refuse the friend of nine presidents.""What will you tell me when they overrun our embassy and take our people hostage?" Carter's exact words.No big surprise the next goverment proved unfriendly. But we needed an ally in the mideast, so Iraq was it. The Senior Bush as VP played a major laison role, advising Hussein some of his actions were giving him a bad image in the American press. Appeasment at its finest. The tanks may have been Soviet design, but the heavy forging equipment was Bethlehem Steel. Kuwait, in an ironic show of support, provided financing to bolster Iraq's military.We supported the Afgan rebels, Yes them, at one time they were called by Reagan Freedom Fighters. The soviet union at one time expressed interest in a negociated end of the war, and we responded by tripling aid to the Moh- can't spell it. Some expressed concern that the weapons might find their way to terrorist organisations, but they were drowned out by Hawks wanting revenge for Veitnam.Afghanistian disapeared from the radar screen for a while, the Taliban weren't Communists.Iraq rolled over Kuwait, and Bin Laden offered his services to defend Saudi Arabia.It might take some of the fire out of Al-Queida if they knew they were feeding a massive ego trip, but the truth doesn't make us look very good either.Best Regards, Donny

[Guest beana51]

Darn Donny, It seems the good ole USA cant do nothing right.I guess all the others in the world see things we don't and are smarter.Were like some big clumsy red neck, or cracker, who just can't get smart.We may drink moonshine,but I think its a lot better than the"COOLAID" many consume.Tells us, What should the US do?Maby a program to adopt a terrorist?to show compassion,or should we give all our possession's away,to our critics?Or should we parade in the streets flagellating our selves ,in an effort to beat the national guilt out of us.Would a MAYDAY mass immolation please our critics?,Maby in order to feel the pain,we should all give our selves AIDS,this way we will become ONE with the WORLD.ONE WORLD,is not that the goal of many? with the US on a par with Zambia?The United States Of The World!with us as a state, being addressed to by an international body. Far out you think,?not so my friend.Even in the supreme court its debates to what international laws should be applied to the US.,The world court wishes to declare our elected officials War criminals.The world would like nothing better than to reduce us to a third world country.A new society,with out culture,traditions,and religion.Look around you,the ACLU,and those Hollywood types are working day and nite with huge amounts of money for many years to do just that.The reality is they cold succeed.With sympathizers supporting this concept,or worse ,with our home grown critics,they will open the gates to the barbarians.A citizen strolling around in ROME 240ad, could never envision that any power in the world could shake or threaten his world.But it shook,and it was done in ,from within. History does repeat it self . Yes ,the Best to you too! HAVE FUN! VIN GOTTA GO FLYING NOW!!

[Guest Shalomar]

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!Actually, a big factor in the fall of the Roman Empire was becoming an empire, rather than a Republic. They did good under a few emporers, but the problem is you're stuck with them. Ceasar was murdered by the Senate because he regarded as too powerfull, you know. Avenged, then replaced by Octavious.Look how the multinationals were maneuvering all thru WWII so that whoever won, they'd be OK. History repeating itself? Another major attack, and the excuse, "Those Lousy Lawyers didn't let us take enough of your rights away to protect you."Best Regards, Donny

[RFields5421 1]

Again we're talking apples to fruitcakes.My note - and the note at the top of this thread - was about the US government being able to say "US citizen beana51" is a terrorist threat and we can lock him up. He can't see a lawyer, he can't have a judge review his confinement, he has no right for his family to even know he was been detained. Note I did not say arrested because the executive branch is not arresting US citizens - it is detaining them.After all, everyone knows beana51 has to be a terrorist - have you seen all the information about airplanes, airports on his computer. No loyal american would ever have that kind of information - he must be a terrorist. Not only that, look how many shady foreigners he communicates with on the internet - using codes like VOR and STARS and SIDS.Also notice I am NOT talking about the detention of non-US citizens outside the United States.I may or may not agree with that detention or the way it is being handled - that's a separate issue.I guess I've spent too many years in countries where the government could and did come into homes, arrest people and take them away. No explaination, no way for the "accused" to have his case heard, nothing.I guess I've spent too many years trying to protect this country to make sure nothing like that could ever happen in the United States.I guess I'm not only shocked to see it happening, but even more shocked to see how many people do not see anything wrong. Yet two seconds later in the same paragraph say those other countries experience don not count because we are the United States.When we start agreeing with and supporting our government hauling citizens off without due process - we are no longer different from those other countries.Terrorism isn't some indefinable notion to me or a possible vague threat in the future - it's being thrown out of bed and against a wall by the concussion of a car bomb, it's picking up several body parts and hoping, but knowing, they are all that's left of friends, it's watching the TV news and knowing my son is just yards from the death and destruction on the screen.I'm no different from thousands of US citizens whose families and friends have been the victims of terrorist. We all hate terrorism with an intense personal passion.No where has anyone suggested the split second, life or death decisions should not remain the province of those on the front lines.Just one simple question - are secret detentions and .... of US citizens what this country should be about?Every person on this thread talks about terrorist - how does anyone know? Do you trust your government to be 100% correct all the time in the case of US citizens?If you do, good luck and don't look over your shoulder - they may be watching you.(Yes I have been met by the TSA when exiting an airplane in the US - because I looked at an airport parking diagram to see the taxi route for an AFCAD I was working on - thankfully the pilot was a flight simmer - or I might be somewhere else. You try explaining Flight Simulator to a $7.50 per hour 'federal law enforcement' agent.)If you've ever worked with people in military intelligence, or ever worked for the government - you know their accuracy percentages.Though this discussion is really moot - because there is an appeal of this policy working it's way through the court system.So far not a single judge has agreed with the administration's view that they can detain any US citizen without representation or without cause for any reason they choose.It will end up before the Supreme Court. I don't think the administration is willing to tell the country it will not follow the court's decision.I've said earlier - I do think this country needs an Official Secrets Act, I do think the government needs to be able to hold certain trials or portions of trials under the label of classified information, I do think there needs to be ways to hold certain classes of criminals in jail without recourse to bail, and if convicted for the rest of their lives.But it needs to be done with appropriate judicial review. It needs to be done under laws passed by the legislative branch.Other countries can maintain their security yet protect the rights and freedoms of their citizens.Why does this admistration, and so many of you on this board - say it cannot be done in the United States?Do you have that little faith in your fellow citizens and the entire government?

[Guest beana51]

Hi Donny, The empire actually lasted in Constantinople until the turks in some 1000yr,Ill check it out later, They,the Turks, besieged the city with cannon which was novel for the time.Hence the changed name Istanbul.St Sophia cathedral ,then became a mosque.And still is this to this day.Now Julius Caesar,was assassinated.He was more liberal than most know.He wanted reforms .One of his plans was to make the then slum housing more affordable to the people, and give property to his veteran legion's.He also wanted to gave the public his private estate for a park.Remember this was not imperial Rome,Augustus was a boy here. The Slumlords,and the corporate farm owners, who most were senators rejected this.They wanted full control over the people,by making them dependent on them for housing,and food.It would have meant a reduction in the monthly take,and loss of control. So ,just like Tony Soprano would do, they bumped him off.Money is the real power!Later the remarkable story of Rome grew into a world power as you know.It was also marked with its PAX ROMANA,An uninterrupted 200yrs of peace.While we get the Hollywood ,and the Inquirers version,the real story still exists in us today.We ,western civilization ,are the very extension of them.Our language,laws,architecture,literature,and yes the Roman Catholic Religion,and much more live on.Our foundling fathers were fluent in Latin.Roman history was a subject which shaped their thinking. For centuries,from England to the middle east, Africa,all was Roman.Connected by highways,to the Roman cities like ,Paris,London,Cologne,Alexandria,Palestine,Jerusalem, and many more. In commerce,infrastructure,they of all the past empires resemble us the most. They had slaves ,We in the USA had slaves also. A massive, powerful ,power.With generations of talented administrators,it seemed unshakable.But as we know even they faded into history.As a republic ,they would not qualify for the influence imperial Rome had.Our story is not over yet,what will it be?,a violent end by modern barbarians,or a world of uninterrupted peace. PAX ANERICANIA! Donny ,I bored you enough CIAO! VIN Going back to the 20sand 30s now and see Bill Lyons,GOLDEN WINGS Great stuff,have you explored it yet?

[Guest Philip Olson]

Reggie, I guess that right now I do have some doubt that our government can protect us and our freedoms at the same time for the simple fact that the people of this country are too politically partisan. If say the republicans try to pass something the democrats attack it with all their might even if the same thing was proposed by the democrats in the recent past. The same goes in reverse. I see people where I live complaining about everything George Bush does but when I question them as to why they are against a certain thing they can not give me valid reasons most of the time. I see the same thing from republicans when the democrats try to do something. It is as if most of what goes on in DC is about power for their party and less to do with the good of the country. Someone said something earlier on in this thread which makes sense and to me will be our salvation, that at some point something will happen, perhaps another attack and we as a nation will come together and do something about this threat. We as a nation have to realize that we can not play politics with something as important as this, our lives and our freedom. I can almost promise that if George Bush tried to pass an official secrets act the left would howl and scream about it and do everything to defeat it. The same goes if the democrats tried to start such a law, the right would howl and scream in the same manner. I am sorry that I have such a negative view of our government right now but I know these things very well. I have been very politically active since the early 80's, I am 38 so I started early. My family has always been very active politically and I have had several family members serve in Congress and the House of Representatives. We need to get away from this our side is right and your side is wrong BS. Who knows though maybe something will surprise me. :-) After all that negativity, I do know that we as a nation will come through this and prosper. Eventually we will strike that balance between security and freedom for our people. Eventually we will defeat the terrorists, like so many they have underestimated us. It really is too bad that a group of murderous thugs was able to cause such questions in our system but as always we and freedom will prevail. War has a habit of causing difficulties such as this, in a way it is unavoidable since we can not see into the future and plan for every calamity. I do think that George Bush and his advisors did what they thought was best for our country as most other presidents would do. Right or wrong they are only human. All that we have to do now is correct the errors and move on.Best Regards,Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

[Guest beana51]

Hi again ,I guess many of us were around who did their thing also.I have been accused of being a terrorist, an assassin,a sadist and much worse, ,by many kids we put thru basic.(Recently a cop pulled me over,and if I did not say YES SIR,he would have locked me up.His introduction was "BOY YOU IN A HEAP OF TROUBLE" as he slapped his nighstick on my car. At my age,I took the word "boy" as a compliment).But that was many moons ago,and the world has changed many times. Please Know that I agree with you on most all of what you say.However these are different times requiring different approaches,Better to err in the pursuit of safety,and security,than to be correct in a tragedy misjudged.Laws are made to be changed in times of uncertainty. Here in the US they revert back to what they were before.I was around when Japanese Americans were detained after pearl harbor,and German "WURSTGASHAFTS store keepers were questioned vigorously. Like they ,the ##### were sinking ships off of Jacksonville,and Long Island NY.YES,there is a feeling of who do you trust!We did say we were sorry,and nobody got exacuted. Its called fear,Fear that me and mine would be harmed.Even today, how many of us when seeing a person , middle east looking guy,with a turban on his head at the airport would not think to ourselves, his he one?I would not care if someone asked him.Like check his shoes,or his backpack bag.Its possible is it not that an explosive device could be there? Its been known to happen ,has it not?.And if it were so ,should we get him an ACLU lawyer,or find out what the .. is he doing.If wrong,ya can always say sorry. If dead who will say they are sorry.I think there is a national concern for our safety.It is incumbent on the government to protect us.Even from hurricanes. We would be fools to not question things suspicious.Now for the dessert,I just love "FRUITCAKES" hope your enjoying yours.Great with cold milk,ya think? I like apples also,no difference.HAVE FUN and Cheers to ya! VIN PS ya really think we could be considered terrorists playing with our Sims??

[RFields5421 1]

Phillip,The partisanship of politics is disgusting. Say what you might about the Congress of the 50's & 60's - they got things done - maybe not the right things, but they didn't shut down the country over partisan issues.In Washington of the past 30 years, winning is more important than doing their job.Yes,What we do in Flight Sim is illegal in many countries - the information we gather on airports and airlines. Flight Simmers have been arrested for spotting at US airports. I have been taken to a police station for writing down tail numbers of aircraft while spotting. I've talked to several pilots who no longer feel safe taking out their Jeppsen charts or reviewing their flight plan while deadheading on commercial flights.I am certain there are law enforcement officials who would consider anyone who works to learn the Level-D 767 to be practicing in the same manner as the 9/11 terrorists.You may have noticed that the latest air navigation information from the US federal government is no longer available to flight simmers. How long before possessing this information is illegal?There is plenty of information in Fight Sim which someone with evil intent could use to harm an airport, an aircraft or an airline.I am firmly convinced that another airliner terrorist attack would result in NO airport or airfield information available to the public in the US. Airline schedules would disappear. If a GA aircraft is used in a terrorist attack, it may well be the end GA as we know it in the US.Even without another attack - I fully expect that Flight Simulator will become "historical" only by FS11. That current information and current charts will be unavailable and probably illegal for non-pilots in the US.

[Guest Charlie]

Reggie,I am 100% with you on this issue and your comments here are, by far, the most compelling in the thread. Thank you for posting them.We have truly become a nation of sheep. That sad fact became clear as a bell in the late eighties when drug testing grew like a weed from an outrageous, unconstitutional, police state idea into a routine of everyday life for most Americans. It has been clear, therefore, for most of twenty years that the population majority will fall like dominoes in response to almost any sort of manipulation from "authority". It is appalling and, indeed, hard for me to believe as a guy who entered adulthood in the late 1960s. Appalling, but it has happened nonetheless.Our nation is being conquered from within by our worst enemy