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regis9

Help Me Choose a High-End Yoke (and Maybe Rudder Pedals)

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Hi everyone, 

My gear arrived, and while a bit of ill timed travel and a very rude Hurricane that left me without power for 50 hours and internet for 72 hours (Dorian) interrupted my ability to get a lot of early play time in, I've had a chance to use the new gear a bit and I thought I'd post my first impressions:

Brunner CLS-E NG

I had two issues when the yoke arrived.  One was that I couldn't access the profile downloads.  A quick teamviewer session with Stefan Brunner and that issue was fixed.  The second, more significant issue was that the yoke was damaged during shipping.  It had a small dent on the yoke housing box and the main circuit board was pushed out of place, such that two of the connectors on the back were moved out of place (nice job UPS).  Brunner responded quickly and asked me to open it up and send some photos, thinking they may need to send me a replacement board.  After receiving the photos they decided they needed it back to do the repairs themselves, so I packed it back up and dropped it off to UPS today.  Kind of a bummer given that it now has to go from Canada back to Switzerland, be repaired, then sent back and hopefully UPS does a better job handling it this time...not sure how soon I'll get it back.

The plus side is that although the connectors were bent out of place I was still able to hook it up and use it a bit before sending it back.  Overall it's quite amazing!  The difference in feel between light aircraft, airliners etc is amazing and very immersive.  I've never hand flown aircraft so much until now, I actually did an NGX flight yesterday and hand flew a SID up to 10,000 feet...I can't remember the last time I had the urge to do that!  It does have far fewer buttons than my Warthog joystick does (of course) so I'm adjusting to that and using the keyboard more (which conveniently will sit on top of the rudder box).

So although it's frustrating having to send it back for repairs, my initial impression is that I made the right purchase.  I just can't wait to get it back!

VirtualFly TQ6+

No surprises here, the TQ6 is everything it's chalked up to be.  Smooth, precise, solidly built, it's a wonderful piece of hardware and I couldn't be happier with it.  The ability to make minute throttle changes on approach is just wonderful.  I could actually kill an embarrassingly large amount of time just playing with the levers without even having a sim running 🙂

I've been using it with FSUIPC in P3D and the Virtualfly sofware in X-Plane and both are great.  I had a few crashes using the VIrtualFly software for P3D so I have reverted to using FSUIPC instead.

VirtualFly Ruddo+

Another very impressive piece of solid hardware.  I've never had a realistic set of rudder pedals like this so I'm actually having to relearn my foot placement etc to switch between rudder use and brake use etc.  These things are heavy and take a lot of force to operate!  I have a wooden brace up against the wall that I use for both rudder pedals and racing pedals and it works well, but when applying the force needed to the pedals it actually lifts the front off the ground.  I've put a clamp on it as a temporary solution while I figure something more elegant out.

SsVJ8IZ.jpg

One unexpected challenge I've run into is just how much force is needed to operate the pedal brakes.  I really have to put my weight into the load cells to operate the brakes with default settings.  My problem is that my computer chair is a leather office chair on wheels and when I try to use the brakes I end up pushing myself away from them as my chair rolls back.  Even in a dining room chair with no wheels I have to hold onto the desk with one hand so the chair doesn't tip back when I try to do a full application.  I've been experimenting with FSUIPC and setting the force needed to max out the brakes much lower.  This can be more easily done using the VirtualFly software but as mentioned above it has been causing me crashes (it has to be running while using P3D if you use it).  Also, I feel like by limiting the amount of force I need to use I'm not using the load cells/brakes as designed so I don't really want that to be the permanent solution.  I'm not sure exactly what I'll do here by I'm contemplating removing the wheels from my chair or trying to somehow block the wheels from moving.  I may end up having to get a new chair but that would be a last resort.

I would note that VirtualFly gave me a 7.5% discount as a bundle for buying two things at once.

All in all I've got some things to figure out and and tweaking to do but I'm quite happy with my purchases so far.  

Thanks again to all who helped me arrive at these purchasing decisions!

 

Dave

Edited by regis9
  • Upvote 1

Dave

Current System (Running at 4k): ASUS ROG Maximus XII Hero Z490, i9 10900k, RTX2080ti, 55" Samsung Q80T, 32GB DDR4 3600 RAM, EVGA CLC 280mm AIO Cooler, HP Reverb G2, Brunner CLS-E NG Yoke, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, VirtualFly Ruddo+ and TQ6+

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I don't own either but once you go FFB with fsforce software you will never go back to a non FFB stick/yoke


ZORAN

 

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8 minutes ago, zmak said:

I don't own either but once you go FFB with fsforce software you will never go back to a non FFB stick/yoke

Au contraire, that's exactly what I did with the Iris Dragonfly. I found FS Force very basic and it didn't really add much to the experience of flying. It appears Brunner uses its own software that is a lot more sophisticated, so perhaps the effect is more convincing. As I said earlier, it really depends on how well they have tied in their FFB to actual sim behaviour. Much of what FS Force does is to treat the yoke like a big Playstation DualShock controller, which is only interesting for about the first ten minutes.


MarkH

gGzCVFp.jpg
Core i7-7700K / 32Gb DDR4 / Gigabyte GTX1070 / 1080p x 3 x weird / Win7 64 Pro

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@regis9

Hello Dave.
Thanks for the report. I am trying to figure out what your problem is. Is the force for the brake action very high (differential braking) or is the force for the rudder movement (fore aft movement of the pedals) very high. I read that the fore aft force could be reduced by removing springs. Have you tried that?


FlyHirundo Rudder Pedal and Yoke
Designed and manufactured in Switzerland

Email: info@flyhirundo.com
Website: under construction

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Both are stronger than anything I’ve Used before, but it’s the fore/aft (braking) motion that is my issue.  

From what I read the minimum force is with one spring, and a second spring can be added for additional force (I can’t imagine who could make use of that).  I’ll have a look though, maybe I can remove the one spring that is on there.

Thanks!


Dave

Current System (Running at 4k): ASUS ROG Maximus XII Hero Z490, i9 10900k, RTX2080ti, 55" Samsung Q80T, 32GB DDR4 3600 RAM, EVGA CLC 280mm AIO Cooler, HP Reverb G2, Brunner CLS-E NG Yoke, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, VirtualFly Ruddo+ and TQ6+

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42 minutes ago, regis9 said:

Both are stronger than anything I’ve Used before, but it’s the fore/aft (braking) motion that is my issue.  

From what I read the minimum force is with one spring, and a second spring can be added for additional force (I can’t imagine who could make use of that).  I’ll have a look though, maybe I can remove the one spring that is on there.

Thanks!

Hi Regis9  First congratulations on your new Hardware. You will learn heals on the floor, it take abit of getting use to after coming from the plastic pedals. After awhile it will all come natural. My solution with the chair was to drill 3 holes in my floor mat to accommodate the wheels and it works like a champ. I only have one spring on my brakes and find it just about perfect. PM me your email and ill send you some pictures.  Josh      


CPU: Intel i9-11900K @5.2 / RAM: 32GB DDR4 3200 / GPU: 3080 10GB /

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Thanks, I am starting to get used to heels on the floor for the rudder, but I find I need to pick my feet up off the ground and move them higher up the pedal to get enough leverage with the brake pedals, is that normal or do most people leave heels on the floor for braking too?  Maybe I need to look at adjusting the pedal angle.

Edited by regis9

Dave

Current System (Running at 4k): ASUS ROG Maximus XII Hero Z490, i9 10900k, RTX2080ti, 55" Samsung Q80T, 32GB DDR4 3600 RAM, EVGA CLC 280mm AIO Cooler, HP Reverb G2, Brunner CLS-E NG Yoke, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, VirtualFly Ruddo+ and TQ6+

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18 minutes ago, regis9 said:

Thanks, I am starting to get used to heels on the floor for the rudder, but I find I need to pick my feet up off the ground and move them higher up the pedal to get enough leverage with the brake pedals, is that normal or do most people leave heels on the floor for braking too?  Maybe I need to look at adjusting the pedal angle.

Yes you move your feet up to use the brakes. When I'm on the ground braking or using differential braking my heels are not on the floor.

Edited by FreeBird(Josh)

CPU: Intel i9-11900K @5.2 / RAM: 32GB DDR4 3200 / GPU: 3080 10GB /

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I opted for a ACE 737 Captains Yoke and the JetMax 737 TQ. I love my setup zero issues. If I had to do it over again I would have purchased from Agronn because they are still in business and I plan to buy a single seat 737 from them.

 

This is my review of the ACE's 737 Captains Pro Line yoke.

 

Agronn

https://www.agronn.com/copy-of-flight-controls-1

 

 

My setup for now

 

48749292342_bcc3acd730_h.jpgsim1 by pewter2001z28 Camaro, on Flickr

 

48749292302_6fe536d61a_h.jpgsim2 by pewter2001z28 Camaro, on Flickr


JetLine Systems Gravity GT2-Windows 10 Home Edition (64-Bit), NZXT H500 Mid-Tower, Black, Gigabyte Aorus Z390 PRO WIFI, LGA 1151, Intel 9th Gen Core i9 9900K (5.0GHz Turbo) 8 Core / 16 Thread, Corsair Hydro H60 120mm Liquid Cooling, 32GB Corsair DDR4 SDRAM 3000MHz RGB, 8GB Nvidia GeForce RTX 2070, GDDR6
750 Watt Corsair RM Series Power Supply, 5.1 Channel Realtek Integrated HD Audio, Primary SSD Drive:1TB Samsung 970 EVO, M.2 NVMe PCIe (SSD), 4TB WD Black 7200 RPM Mechanical, P3Dv4

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On 9/12/2019 at 2:26 AM, MarkDH said:

Au contraire, that's exactly what I did with the Iris Dragonfly. I found FS Force very basic and it didn't really add much to the experience of flying. It appears Brunner uses its own software that is a lot more sophisticated, so perhaps the effect is more convincing. As I said earlier, it really depends on how well they have tied in their FFB to actual sim behaviour. Much of what FS Force does is to treat the yoke like a big Playstation DualShock controller, which is only interesting for about the first ten minutes.

The Brunner CLS-E is not a Dragonfly--neither are Brunner's rudder pedals or complete flight simulators.  The yoke is a well engineered professional use product developed by a company that makes actual real world flight simulators that were not financed through crowd funding.  According to my friends who fly actual aircraft, the Brunner yoke and pedals mimic very closely the feel of GA aircraft under various flight situations.  For example, when the Brunner yoke is loaded with software Brunner developed for the A2A C172, if the A2A aircraft is parked the yoke is pushed all the way forward, because in the real world gravity has pulled the elevator down to its stops.  When I get the simulated 172 up to the correct speed, the elevator lifts up on its own when the wind force is sufficient in the simulator, and the yoke comes back to its neutral position without touching it. That's what happens in the real world.  The same applies to the vibration of the yoke when the C172 reaches its published stall speed.  Brunner has done this through their proprietary software interface program where they have developed profiles for different aircraft, which I imagine they had to do for their professional simulators.  The feeling of the Brunner yoke and pedals is entirely different if the PMDG 737 profile program is used, compared to the program used for the A2A 172 or Carenado Baron 58 or Justflight's Fokker F27. Brunner has developed about 20 profiles which fit most types of simulator aircraft, with one default profile if needed.  I owned the YOKO before the Brunner, and the difference between the two products in yoke feel for different aircraft is night and day when the Brunner profile program is used.

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Forever indebted to the late Michael Greenblatt of FSGS.

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, vp49p3 said:

The Brunner CLS-E is not a Dragonfly--neither are Brunner's rudder pedals or complete flight simulators

Non sequitur. I'm not convinced you read what I wrote very carefully because you seem to be agreeing with me but in a tone that suggests disgreement. And evidently you aren't familiar with FS Force, which does all the things you mention of the Brunner. I'm not disputing that the Brunner hardware is superior but if those things are all the Brunner yoke does I'm not convinced it's much of a game-changer. If, on the other hand, it captures real aerodynamic effects and so responds to (not fakes) gusts, wind-shear, wake turbulence, yaw buffet, crossed controls, etc., then that's a different matter.


MarkH

gGzCVFp.jpg
Core i7-7700K / 32Gb DDR4 / Gigabyte GTX1070 / 1080p x 3 x weird / Win7 64 Pro

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A quick update, I replaced the wheels on my chair with these:

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B076GVBYXW/ref=pe_3034960_233709270_TE_item

They work great and I can apply full force to the pedals without my chair moving.

Brunner has repaired my yoke and it should be arriving tomorrow, I'm looking forward to getting it back up in the air!  Hopefully UPS was a bit more gentle this time.

 


Dave

Current System (Running at 4k): ASUS ROG Maximus XII Hero Z490, i9 10900k, RTX2080ti, 55" Samsung Q80T, 32GB DDR4 3600 RAM, EVGA CLC 280mm AIO Cooler, HP Reverb G2, Brunner CLS-E NG Yoke, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, VirtualFly Ruddo+ and TQ6+

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On 9/17/2019 at 6:05 PM, MarkDH said:

Non sequitur. I'm not convinced you read what I wrote very carefully because you seem to be agreeing with me but in a tone that suggests disgreement. And evidently you aren't familiar with FS Force, which does all the things you mention of the Brunner. I'm not disputing that the Brunner hardware is superior but if those things are all the Brunner yoke does I'm not convinced it's much of a game-changer. If, on the other hand, it captures real aerodynamic effects and so responds to (not fakes) gusts, wind-shear, wake turbulence, yaw buffet, crossed controls, etc., then that's a different matter.

Mark, I think it's really about expectations and understanding of what the software and hardware are trying to achieve. For me the main benefit of the Brunner CLS-E pedals and Yoke are nothing to do with them moving, nor wobbling about in gusts and turbulence. The aircraft I fly don't give any movement of the controls in these conditions anyway as I'm operating cables to hydraulic servos in the 737. 

The real benefit is TRIM. You can trim the loads out, just like a real aircraft. (well except Airbus...) Making the Brunner behave like different types of control, is good also. My 737 does not trim like a C172, so neither should the yoke.  Flying a real aircraft is about accuracy and trim, hand flying is a joy once it's in trim, a word not allowed when it's not. No other yoke replicates this correctly. 


Mark Harris.

Aged 52. 

P3D,  & DCS mostly. DofReality P6 platform partially customised and waiting for parts. Brunner CLS-E Yoke and Pedals. Winwing HOTAS and Cougar MFDS.

Scan 3XS Laptop i9-9900K 3.6ghz, 64GB DDR4, RTX2080.

B737NG Pilot. Ex Q400, BAe146, ATP and Flying Instructor in the dim and distant past! SEP renewed and back at the coal face flying folk on the much deserved holidays!

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