Undocking Pop-Up Windows and Frame Rate Loss

[LecLightning56 33]

I am having issues with frame rate loss when undocking pop-up windows in Prepar3D v4.5 (e.g. PFDs) and dragging to another monitor. Approximately 20-30% loss in fps occurs. There have been many posts on this subject over the years and I have followed the fixes which some allege to have resolved this problem to no avail.

A question to the community: is a reduction in frame rate an inevitability with undocking pop-up windows in Prepar3D v4.5, or do most folk claim little or no significant frame rate loss? This is a bit of a game killer for me with such things as undocked PFDs or, e.g. undocking the VoxATC panel as it is preferential to have such things dragged across to another monitor. Your thoughts and comments are eagerly awaited.

Edited August 27, 2019 by LecLightning56

[Michael Moe 495]

12 minutes ago, LecLightning56 said:

I am having issues with frame rate loss when undocking windows in Prepar3D v4.5 and dragging to another monitor. Approximately 20-30% loss in fps occurs. There have been many posts on this subject over the years and I have followed the fixes which some allege to have resolved this problem to no avail.

A question to the community: is a reduction in frame rate an inevitability with undocking windows in Prepar3D v4.5, or do most folk claim little or no significant frame rate loss? This is a bit of a game killer for me with such things as undocked PFDs or, e.g. undocking the VoxATC panel as it is preferential to have such things dragged across to another monitor. Your thoughts and comments are eagerly awaited.

This issue pops up from time to time on my system but not so often anymore so i forget what the cause is.

It happens when i undock the CDUII FMC. I think its related to VSYNC and refreshrate of the screen.

Try change the refreshrate of the second monitor back and forth. Sometimes i think W10 is screwing the refresh up.

Second you could also try a driver reinstall.

Normally it drop 1-2 fps vs 1 screen.

Michael Moe

[LecLightning56 33]

Spurred on by your comments about refresh rates of the monitors, I decided to try a few things. With my primary monitor set at 60Hz and the second monitor at 50Hz, the frame rate loss was almost 50%. By setting the refresh rate of my main, primary monitor to 120Hz and the second to 60Hz, there would appear to be no perceptible frame rate loss in undocking pop-up windows.

I need a bit more convincing, but the key in my case would appear to be doubling the refresh rate of my primary monitor with respect to the secondary monitor. Note that my secondary monitor is not a full-sized monitor adjacent to the primary, but merely a small, HDMI-connected Lilliput touchscreen monitor which is ideal for dragging PFDs, CDUs etc. the refresh rate for the secondary monitor is limited to 50,59,60Hz, whereas the primary is selectable to 60,120,144Hz and is AMD Freesync compatible (and hence useable for G-Sync with my GeForce GPU and driver combination).   

[Michael Moe 495]

19 minutes ago, LecLightning56 said:

Spurred on by your comments about refresh rates of the monitors, I decided to try a few things. With my primary monitor set at 60Hz and the second monitor at 50Hz, the frame rate loss was almost 50%. By setting the refresh rate of my main, primary monitor to 120Hz and the second to 60Hz, there would appear to be no perceptible frame rate loss in undocking pop-up windows.

I need a bit more convincing, but the key in my case would appear to be doubling the refresh rate of my primary monitor with respect to the secondary monitor. Note that my secondary monitor is not a full-sized monitor adjacent to the primary, but merely a small, HDMI-connected Lilliput touchscreen monitor which is ideal for dragging PFDs, CDUs etc. the refresh rate for the secondary monitor is limited to 50,59,60Hz, whereas the primary is selectable to 60,120,144Hz and is AMD Freesync compatible (and hence useable for G-Sync with my GeForce GPU and driver combination).   

Glad it might work out 🙂

My second screen is a VRInsight FMC/CDUII running 1024x768@60HZ and when i calibrate things i have my main TV/monitor at 59/60HZ (what ever works in W10) and switching back to 25HZ still doesnt screw up the FPS loss

Michael Moe

Edited August 27, 2019 by Michael Moe

[himmelhorse 1,276]

Hello all,

For what it is worth, my opinion is that this is an unsolvable issue until P3D changes its engine.

I do not know what the difference is but I have used up to 8 monitors in FS2004. Using 2 or more monitors in FSX reduced the "Game" to rubbish albeit serious rubbish. Early FSX-SE was exactly the same and so was P3D 1-4. Using more than one monitor, in any one of those platforms was a deal-breaker.  The same applied to Xplane.

Despite extensive breakthroughs in the 64bit platforms, FS2004 reigned supreme in the multi-monitor performance stakes. Graphics, aircraft, and scenery is magnificent  FSX, FSX-DE and further improvements in P3Dv4 and Xplane 11 for those categories are incredibly desirable and worthwhile.  

However, if I want to fly using six or more monitors, I keep going back to FS2004 as it is the ONLY multi-monitor platform for me.

I would, however, like to qualify that somewhat.  My system (CPU) is fairly ancient despite being overclocked to 4.8 and until I upgrade my opinion is based on MY system at this time.

In summary ... EVERY platform beats FS2004 in EVERY category, except Multi-Monitor performance. This is the single reason I remain flying with FS2004 and to this day, I trot it out for a flight at least once a week. 

I hold out great hopes for P3dv5, Xplane 12(Vulkan) and the new FS2020 but then again, I have been doing exactly that since FSX n 2006. So far it has been futile.

Maybe VR s the final answer and is very definitely worth considering for those who can afford it.  By the way, One Pimax5k+ is probably the same cost as 3 or 4 decent monitors anyway.

Again, my humble opinion.

Regards

Tony

 

[LecLightning56 33]

15 minutes ago, himmelhorse said:

Hello all,

For what it is worth, my opinion is that this is an unsolvable issue until P3D changes its engine.

I do not know what the difference is but I have used up to 8 monitors in FS2004. Using 2 or more monitors in FSX reduced the "Game" to rubbish albeit serious rubbish. Early FSX-SE was exactly the same and so was P3D 1-4. Using more than one monitor, in any one of those platforms was a deal-breaker.  The same applied to Xplane.

Despite extensive breakthroughs in the 64bit platforms, FS2004 reigned supreme in the multi-monitor performance stakes. Graphics, aircraft, and scenery is magnificent  FSX, FSX-DE and further improvements in P3Dv4 and Xplane 11 for those categories are incredibly desirable and worthwhile.  

However, if I want to fly using six or more monitors, I keep going back to FS2004 as it is the ONLY multi-monitor platform for me.

I would, however, like to qualify that somewhat.  My system (CPU) is fairly ancient despite being overclocked to 4.8 and until I upgrade my opinion is based on MY system at this time.

In summary ... EVERY platform beats FS2004 in EVERY category, except Multi-Monitor performance. This is the single reason I remain flying with FS2004 and to this day, I trot it out for a flight at least once a week. 

I hold out great hopes for P3dv5, Xplane 12(Vulkan) and the new FS2020 but then again, I have been doing exactly that since FSX n 2006. So far it has been futile.

Maybe VR s the final answer and is very definitely worth considering for those who can afford it.  By the way, One Pimax5k+ is probably the same cost as 3 or 4 decent monitors anyway.

Again, my humble opinion.

Regards

Tony

 

Well, I was flummoxed yesterday with the extent of fps loss and, as you say a deal-breaker. But what I have tried today works and there is only a 1-2 fps loss with an undocked window dragged onto another monitor.

It could be a bit of a lottery governing how people are affected by this issue and whether or not a fix can be found which actually suits their system. There are no doubting a large number of determinants in isolating the cause of this issue and what may have "fixed" it for one person may not apply with another. Anyway, I am happy with my discovery but as you say, it will necessitate a change of engine in P3D to finally crack this nut for everyone concerned. 

[LecLightning56 33]

1 hour ago, Michael Moe said:

Glad it might work out 🙂

My second screen is a VRInsight FMC/CDUII running 1024x768@60HZ and when i calibrate things i have my main TV/monitor at 59/60HZ (what ever works in W10) and switching back to 25HZ still doesnt screw up the FPS loss

Michael Moe

One thing I do note is that there is a slight lag involved in recovering the frame rate: there is initially a small drop and then something very close to the pre-undocked frame rate kicks in after a few 10s of seconds. Odd, but at least the frame rate is recoverable in my case.

[Michael Moe 495]

3 hours ago, LecLightning56 said:

One thing I do note is that there is a slight lag involved in recovering the frame rate: there is initially a small drop and then something very close to the pre-undocked frame rate kicks in after a few 10s of seconds. Odd, but at least the frame rate is recoverable in my case.

I recall something in the past as well as you describe down to single digits and then straight up again.(maybe disable/enable VSYNC ?)

But its years down the road i am afraid - Try maximum performance for the GPU if you have not tried it.?

Michael Moe

[Caveney737 66]

I have four un-docked panels from the PMDG 737 NGX positioned on three different

screens and it does not affect my fps at all, unless I use certain external frame rate

limiters (especially Nvidia Inspector) when my fps falls to 10 from 30. If I limit

the frames to 30 from within P3D, no problems at all. There are some threads regarding

this problem but I never found any solutions. Do you use NI to limit FPS?

 

Clive Caveney

[curbz 22]

5 hours ago, caveney747 said:

I have four un-docked panels from the PMDG 737 NGX positioned on three different

screens and it does not affect my fps at all, unless I use certain external frame rate

limiters (especially Nvidia Inspector) when my fps falls to 10 from 30. If I limit

the frames to 30 from within P3D, no problems at all. There are some threads regarding

this problem but I never found any solutions. Do you use NI to limit FPS?

 

Clive Caveney

Pretty much the same setup for me also, and the same experience - no frame rate loss. 

The only limiter I have found to work with undocked panels on multiple screens is DxTory. 

[LecLightning56 33]

I thought I needed further convincing and this has proved to be exactly the case. If you perform a clean installation of the Nvidia graphics driver using DDU uninstaller in safe mode, then reinstall the latest drivers, I find that in the absence of any adjustments within the Nvidia Control Panel (NCP) and also any graphics overlay from  GeForce Experience (GFE), the frame rate issue does not occur. If, however, I adjust e.g. the Low Latency mode setting in the Nvidia Control Panel to e.g. Ultra from an off setting, it breaks the zero frame rate loss situation with undocking pop-up windows and frame rate loss occurs. The test of this is that, once having gone back to the bad old days of the frame rate loss situation, if you clean uninstall all Nvidia traces with DDU Uninstaller then reinstall the latest graphics driver, frame rate loss does not occur. I cannot speak of GeForce Experience, and some have reported that the graphics overlay has caused problems when set in GFE, but other than advertising the latest driver updates (which you can install manually anyway), GFE may have little application to users of Prepar3D v4. I believe that LM are advising users not to install GFE on account of conflicts with the self-same frame rate loss issue.

Another consideration is that there may be little to gain from making wholesale changes to settings in NCP although they may of course be beneficial to users of the gaming community for which Nvidia seems to serve and be driven by, not necessarily to our advantage. Whilst on that note, it is bizarre that the likes of Nvidia are driven by increasingly more improvements to the gaming industry, offering that elusive 100% more fps with the latest driver, whilst we sit on the fence wondering when we finally see more tangible improvements to our sims gratis of Nvidia or perhaps radical changes in the coding of the sim which capitalise more fully on advances in the graphics capability.

So, my conclusion is that the frame rate loss issue can be resolved but certain tweaks in NCP which may not be wholly appropriate to P3D will break this, necessitating a clean reinstall of the graphics driver to restore the situation of zero or little frame rate loss when undocking.

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by LecLightning56

[chrisal 9]

Hi.

It has been a real pain for me using the Aerosoft A320.

Reading this I've tried all the ideas. The one that actually works perfectly is removing the NV driver using DDU. Then a clean install of the driver (431.60 as it happens). No changes in NV control panel. Now no fps loss at all in un-docking the mcdu and moving it to another screen.

VSync on/off has no effect, neither does unlimited fps in the sim. I cannot alter my refresh rate settings (old monitors) so both at 60. It must be fiddling with the NV panel that does it.

Happy bunny.

Chris

[LecLightning56 33]

2 hours ago, chrisal said:

Hi.

It has been a real pain for me using the Aerosoft A320.

Reading this I've tried all the ideas. The one that actually works perfectly is removing the NV driver using DDU. Then a clean install of the driver (431.60 as it happens). No changes in NV control panel. Now no fps loss at all in un-docking the mcdu and moving it to another screen.

VSync on/off has no effect, neither does unlimited fps in the sim. I cannot alter my refresh rate settings (old monitors) so both at 60. It must be fiddling with the NV panel that does it.

Happy bunny.

Chris

Glad that my investigations have not been in vain. But again, happy bunny with me for having finally nailed this annoying obstacle to getting the most out of the sim.

[CharlieDont5urf 17]

Hey together,

and first thanks to you for all your investigation. I got the same problem some days ago while trying to move/undock my GTN to an IPad via the Duet App. The clean install of the NVidia driver did the trick for me too but no DDU needed. Simpy reinstall the driver via custom options and than tick the fresh installation. I hope there will be a way to use all the NCP settings with the undocked windows without cutting the FPS to the half.

[LecLightning56 33]

It seems remarkable what my thread has uncovered on this issue when any Google search on the subject or a trawl through the Prepar3D forums has made no such mention, albeit where P3D v4.5 is concerned, with the exception of a few other alleged remedies. That said it is great that we are all sharing our experiences and in particular, how we have overcome the problem. For me it means no fiddling with NCP settings, not that these change things too radically in the sim anyway.

Thanks for all your inputs, guys, and if anyone else has any further comments to make let us hear them for the benefit of the wider community. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by LecLightning56