... eye candy winning.I'd take fluid, realistic flight and systems dynamics and a good weather/atmos model over nice views any day. It's obviously ridiculously early days yet, but the initial announcement, brief as it is, seems very focused on the distracting sparkle. The paint job is not nearly as important as what's under the hood. Also, for we harder-core simmers, it's the 3rd party devs that make this franchise. I hope that MS is keeping them in the loop.

Remember one thing--you can't display flight dynamics, systems modelling and weather engine potential in the context of a "first blush" press release.I am very optimistic we'll se improvements in all those areas. I am ecstatic that a presentation has been given which shows the MSFS franchise is still alive and well, and being given the attention us serious hobbyists want it to receive. Release is almost a year away--there's much more going into the sim than these cosmetic shots alone convey. There will probably be some features added that haven't been thought of yet, either by the MSFS team or us diehard users.I am just relishing the moment and enjoying the excitement I think most of us share. I don't think anyone should worry this early in the game about what has, or hasn't made it into the sim. What we saw yesterday was the coin toss. We still have four qtrs. and maybe even overtime until the game is done. -John

>I'd take fluid, realistic flight and systems dynamics and a>good weather/atmos model over nice views any day. It's>obviously ridiculously early days yet, but the initial>announcement, brief as it is, seems very focused on the>distracting sparkle. It is impossible to disagree with the above. They gave as a glimpse what kind of technology they have -now they need to refine it and also not loose sight of what primary task of a flightsim is. Whether they actually do it - I would not be so optimistic as John - they still cater to this average Joe Sim who never even heard of Avsim.Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/pmdg_744F.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

John is right. Besides, as has been mentioned a million times before, "eye candy" is what the average FS buyer at Wal-Mart is looking for most. You can also show eye candy a lot easier in a demo video than you can flight dynamics, etc. However, my gut feeling about the internal stuff in FS X is pretty good. On one of the FS Team's Blog a link is included to Lefteris' Blog.That at least seems to suggest that the FS Dev Team is at least talking to the "hardcore" 3rd party developers, which is an encouraging sign.-Bryan

>John is right. Besides, as has been mentioned a million>times before, "eye candy" is what the average FS buyer at>Wal-Mart is looking for most. You can also show eye candy a>lot easier in a demo video than you can flight dynamics, etc. >>>However, my gut feeling about the internal stuff in FS X is>pretty good. On one of the FS Team's Blog a link is included>to Lefteris' Blog.>>That at least seems to suggest that the FS Dev Team is at>least talking to the "hardcore" 3rd party developers, which is>an encouraging sign.>>-Bryan>>If you don't sell to the masses; we hardcore flyers would not have anything new to trick out. ;-) Or we could all pay 199.00 US per copy for a hardcore sim for us niche flyers.

"....and also not loose sight of what primary task of a flightsim is...."I think I have stated this about once a month, but I need to state it again. A "Flight" simulator simulates "Flight." What's flight? One of the most beautiful books on flying ever written in my opinion was "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" by Richard Bach. The seagull didn't have a gps, didn't have wheels/rolling resistance issues, didn't have a virtual cockpit to get lost in. The seagull flew, and reading the book you felt every second of exhilaration as the seagull flew.A flight simulator can be many things to many people and often it's just the joy of flying, looking right and left, up and down and watching the world soar underneath. If our interest in specific parts of flight--cockpit drill, ATC, etc is to be subsidized by the masses, the visual aspect of flight has to be appealing. And, it has to be simple for the masses to get in an aircraft and go enjoy flight.There are flightsims for teaching flight, and flightsims that were born out of an intent to entertain. We have to remember what this flight simulator was. We can't forget what the primary purpose of this franchise is. It's about us and our love of flight, but it's more about pulling in those who haven't tasted it yet, or want to relive it, some never caring to do the flying themselves.-John

I have to say, if you consider how much more realistic in terms of flight modelling FS2004 is over FS98, then there is a clear indication that the dev team are continually improving the flight dynamics of the sim.To say they are only focussing on eye candy is quite ridiculous. Especially when you consider all that's been said in the blogs the team have written.James

>I have to say, if you consider how much more realistic in>terms of flight modelling FS2004 is over FS98, then there is a>clear indication that the dev team are continually improving>the flight dynamics of the sim.>>JamesWell said, that is absolutely the case. If the rest of the sim improves anywhere nears as much as the visuals, we are all in for a great treat. I am sure there will be enough here for all the interested parties in this usual incremental increase, as has been the case for most of the previous iterations of MSFS.As i've said before, it's all a matter of ones view of the glass, whether it's half empty or half full.Cheers,Chris Porter:-outtaPerthWestern Australia

>I have to say, if you consider how much more realistic in>terms of flight modelling FS2004 is over FS98, then there is a>clear indication that the dev team are continually improving>the flight dynamics of the sim.I totally agree.Please don't get me wrong -- the FS franchise is incredible and I'm thankful for it. I also think it represents great value for money, and in my view the team behind it are aviation and simulation heroes.>To say they are only focussing on eye candy is quite>ridiculous.I doubt that this is the case, and I wasn't meaning to assert that at all.Furthermore, I realise that eye candy is very important for the mass market, and without them FS wouldn't exist.However, I'm just hoping from the hardcore point of view that the FM, systems and weather is getting as much attention as it deserves.Once again, YMMV but the thrill for me in having a sim plane fly, for instance, well trimmed with the proper aerodynamic reactions well outstrips anything that I can think of from a visual aspect.I realise that options have always been scalable and I can't see that they would change things, but also I'd rather devote my processer grunt to delivering the best flight, systems and atmosphere simulation rather than generating shadows and windshield glint (both very nice, by the way). Once again, however, it's not a zero sum game.Hope that clears up a few things.

Flight Simulator is a game. Its main purpose is to entertain people. The easiest way to entertain the widest group of people is to give them as much eye candy as possible and possibly their home town rendered in a way so they can find the street they live at.They will also add goal oriented missions to the game and this is another good step to improve gameplay of FS. 5.1 sound is another one.Most of people who play games like Flight Simulator newer flew any plane as a pilot. So flight dynamics is only secondary thing I suppose. The plane in FS should just fly easy enough for a beginner, so he or she can fly around llooking at landscape and that's all. We cannot talk about any realism here as it does not make too much sense, because in real small plane you basically fly by your #### 50% of time and view is completely different unless you have 3 or more monitors connected and can see in 180o angle and move your head up and down.So instead of trying to make it "realistic" they make it fun to play. MS is making a game for wide audience of people to enjoy, not pilot training tool. In my opinion it is good thing.

With a gap of three years, I would hope that FS-X is rather more than just an "incremental" improvement.Chris Low.

MS FS has never been "just a game" and never will.If that was true, the development directions would've been largely different for many years already.MS FS is a flight simulator, that just happens to base itself on PC+WINDOWS environment, which is also the basic platform for many games. It's widely regarded as _the_ flight simulator (outside of real training tools like what CAE produces), and it's capable of providing good enough a platform to build such masterpieces on like the Level-D 767 or any other complex procedural simulation.The combat flight simulator is a game. Half-life is a game. Battlefield 1942 is a game. MS FS is not, I think.regards,Tero

Can't agree more.One more thought: FS is the Scenery. Level-D, is the SIM.You can say the same about PMDG or FeelThere 737, and some others around. But Level-D!!! Oh God.Just throw at me FSX with Level-D, and I'll be happy as a Clam. I no need nothing else.

>With a gap of three years, I would hope that FS-X is rather>more than just an "incremental" improvement.Why would you expect that? Do we flightsimmers expect a team of people to work continuously, around the clock, for our gratification?If it is the case, then all well and good, we are indeed lucky, but assuming it is a foregone conclusion is to me, the height of arrogance...Chris Porter:-outta

Hi Tony,"Or we could all pay 199.00 US per copy for a hardcore sim for us niche flyers."I agree exactly. I've just put Elite on my system which has FS4 style graphics with something like 15 colors (seems to be :) ), and it cost about what you wrote- more with some add-ons for it. My wife is amazed that I would even fly it, as all she sees is the "eye candy"- so to her its a big step backwards, and a lot more expensive. But I can't stop flying the C172R (1 of 2 planes provided), as I've never in my life flown a sim where the flight model actually makes me feel that I'm flying the plane that I do in real life. Right from the turbulence to thr ground effect, even the ground handling- all I can say is that some in Switzerland has finally figured out how to program a flight model correctly.Bruce.