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Ed Kammerman

What's with FSX ATC?

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Hi,

 I'm doing a flight KLAX-RJTT, I was between waypoints when FSX's ATC tells me to basically turn around and reverse course. That ends up taking me back to my last waypoint. When I reach that waypoint it sends me back in the general direction of the original waypoint I was headed toward. What's with that ? 

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42 minutes ago, Ed Kammerman said:

Hi,

 I'm doing a flight KLAX-RJTT, I was between waypoints when FSX's ATC tells me to basically turn around and reverse course. That ends up taking me back to my last waypoint. When I reach that waypoint it sends me back in the general direction of the original waypoint I was headed toward. What's with that ? 

It's far worse than that my friend.  There is nothing in the default ATC that is correct.  May I tell you a short story my friend (really for everyone)?

I've spent a great deal of time over the past 14 years introducing people to flying in an realism based online environment such as VATSIM or IVAO, and I've lost count of the number of people I worked with who became completely lost from the onset because they had incorrectly assumed the ATC would be at least similar to default ATC. In fact, I've lost count of the number of people who reached out to learn how to fly online but then said they first wanted to practice more with [default] ATC in the sim before they felt comfortable enough to venture online (even though I always did this via Shared Cockpit).

My point is that default ATC is so completely wrong and unrealistic that it actually hurts people, or at least sets them back considerably when they later decide to venture online.

Online flight simulation has continued to grow and over the past few years that growth has been substantial.  I'm currently working on something that will enable people to learn how to do everything necessary and be fully prepared to enjoy the many incredible benefits of flying online in a realism based environment - and tremendously reduce the time necessary for them to accomplish this (often reduced by up to 75%). Better yet, this is only a part of what I'm working on, and there is no cost whatsoever to people.  I've had this in the works privately and testing over the past several years.

I'll be announcing this in the weeks to come, but the best way to ensure you receive notification is to sign up for the our Newsletter.

 

Best wishes!

 

 

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4 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

I'm currently working on something that will enable people to learn how to do everything necessary and be fully prepared to enjoy the many incredible benefits of flying online in a realism based environment - and tremendously reduce the time necessary for them to accomplish this (often reduced by up to 75%). Better yet, this is only a part of what I'm working on, and there is no cost whatsoever to people.  I've had this in the works privately and testing over the past several years.

Dave, not sure what it is you're working on but whatever it is, I am certainly looking forward to it!

 

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4 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

There is nothing in the default ATC that is correct.

While I agree that the default ATC is somewhat of a joke, that statement is an overreach. First of all, for VFR flight, the default ATC is perfectly fine. Most flight simmers are not that serious about ATC communication and just like to sight see in a small prop GA aircraft. For IFR flight, the default ATC wanders into fantasy land. But compensating for that is that both the AI aircraft communicate with the ATC and are controlled by the sim. Next, dump the default ATC and use an add-on product. Now you've got legitimate communications that mimic real world behavior, but unfortunately, except for VOXATC, the AI aircraft around you are oblivious to everything and just do their own thing. Lastly, as Dave points out, there is online flying, which is great if your flightplan is in an area which is actively staffed. So it will be interesting to see what he proposes.

And then there's XP11's default ATC which makes the default ATC in P3d4 look realistic. Aerofly FS/2 has the best idea of all. Who needs ATC?

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Yes, flying FSX via IFR is sometimes an adventure:  ATC seems to take me on an unnecessary detour of the airport rather than a more direct route.  On more than occasion, it too advised me to turn back in the opposite direction.  One special memory flying into Zurich, ATC kept taking me on a grand tour of the Alps, turning me in every which way:  I got so frustrated that I totally ended the flight...

Hope the FS2020 ATC is a little closer to reality.  

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The ATC in FSX is bad when it comes to IFR flying, but it's fine with VFR and VFR flight following.  The IFR instructions are sometimes bizarre and make no sense.

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Get a third party ATC for IFR flights.  Even so if you are not careful those software aren't any more helpful than the default ATC.  Make sure to follow all instructions and maintenance necessary for those software and you'll be fine and able to enjoy IFR flights in peace.  🙂

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17 hours ago, jabloomf1230 said:

While I agree that the default ATC is somewhat of a joke, that statement is an overreach. First of all, for VFR flight, the default ATC is perfectly fine. Most flight simmers are not that serious about ATC communication and just like to sight see in a small prop GA aircraft. For IFR flight, the default ATC wanders into fantasy land. But compensating for that is that both the AI aircraft communicate with the ATC and are controlled by the sim. Next, dump the default ATC and use an add-on product. Now you've got legitimate communications that mimic real world behavior, but unfortunately, except for VOXATC, the AI aircraft around you are oblivious to everything and just do their own thing. Lastly, as Dave points out, there is online flying, which is great if your flightplan is in an area which is actively staffed. So it will be interesting to see what he proposes.

And then there's XP11's default ATC which makes the default ATC in P3d4 look realistic. Aerofly FS/2 has the best idea of all. Who needs ATC?

Agreed Jay, I don't fly GA, only airliners... and all the people i usually work or deal with do the same, so I often forget about GA.

Thanks for the reminder!

 

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17 hours ago, tamsini said:

Dave, not sure what it is you're working on but whatever it is, I am certainly looking forward to it!

 

 

Thanks my friend!  I can't say more at the moment, accept we're close to an announcement (just a few weeks).

 

 

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23 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

It's far worse than that my friend.  There is nothing in the default ATC that is correct.  May I tell you a short story my friend (really for everyone)?

I've spent a great deal of time over the past 14 years introducing people to flying in an realism based online environment such as VATSIM or IVAO, and I've lost count of the number of people I worked with who became completely lost from the onset because they had incorrectly assumed the ATC would be at least similar to default ATC. In fact, I've lost count of the number of people who reached out to learn how to fly online but then said they first wanted to practice more with [default] ATC in the sim before they felt comfortable enough to venture online (even though I always did this via Shared Cockpit).

My point is that default ATC is so completely wrong and unrealistic that it actually hurts people, or at least sets them back considerably when they later decide to venture online.

Online flight simulation has continued to grow and over the past few years that growth has been substantial.  I'm currently working on something that will enable people to learn how to do everything necessary and be fully prepared to enjoy the many incredible benefits of flying online in a realism based environment - and tremendously reduce the time necessary for them to accomplish this (often reduced by up to 75%). Better yet, this is only a part of what I'm working on, and there is no cost whatsoever to people.  I've had this in the works privately and testing over the past several years.

I'll be announcing this in the weeks to come, but the best way to ensure you receive notification is to sign up for the our Newsletter.

 

Best wishes!

 

 

Hi, Dave

 I have made a couple of attempts at using VATSIM, unfortunately, to quote your post here 'I've gotten lost'. As I said in my post 'What's up with FSX ATC?'. Most of my flying is IFR, primarily commercial. At my age (70), with my poor eyesight (thank god for auto-land) lol, I also can't sit in a chair for 6-12 hours. So I've been using Radar Contact 4. However recently I've been having an issue between Radar Contact and Flight Sim. Please see 'Launching Radar Contact while in flight' in the Radar Contact Forum. That will show you the issue I've been having including error message. Any thoughts?

 

Thanks, Ed

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In my experience, I find that the default ATC is about 95-97% accurate.  It will usually get me from Point A to Point B, into the ILS glideslope approach and a good landing.  On a couple of rare occasions, It forgot about me or had me at 10,000 feet about 3 miles from touchdown.  Those are very rare occurrences.

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Well Charlie on this particular flight FSX ATC has been a bloody disaster. At the moment though after a couple of days it seems to be functioning decently. So we shall see

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What tends to be really annoying with FSX ATC is when you're somewhat off course for whatever reason and they start giving you what I called The Wiggles. They have you heading in one direction for a few minutes then heading in another instead of in a straight line back to the magenta line or your course. That's my biggest complain with ATC in FSX.

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Hello Ed, the problem with FS ATC is most simmers do not know how to use it. If you are flying IFR you should not accept vectors to final. Choose a transition. Of course the FS approach database will be very much out of date so best to learn how to use ADE and update them.

I also use an edited version of FSATC which does not nag me about altitudes and will not cancel my flight plan if I miss a station. (I use FS9 btw)

So all in all I really enjoy my FS9 ATC but remember my FS nav/approach database is completely up-to-date. (or can be any date you like)

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21 hours ago, Ed Kammerman said:

I have made a couple of attempts at using VATSIM, unfortunately, to quote your post here 'I've gotten lost'.

Unfortunately, that same story has been told countless times, and solving this is just one of many things the project I'm working on will resolve for people.  Sorry I can't say more right now, but I'm sure you'll read about it a lot more in the coming weeks!

Best wishes!

 

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2 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

Unfortunately, that same story has been told countless times, and solving this is just one of many things the project I'm working on will resolve for people.  Sorry I can't say more right now, but I'm sure you'll read about it a lot more in the coming weeks!

Best wishes!

 

Thanks, Dave. I'm looking forward to seeing this. In the meantime my daughter is flying to Tokyo On 9/24/19 I intend to follow her route which will be KBOI-KLAX then a several hour layover before KLAX-RJTT

 

Ed 

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The default ATC certainly leaves a lot to be desired, but it's actually not bad in my opinion.  The voices are fantastic when compared to some expensive payware offerings, so at least it sounds real.

What I do is basically ignore the approach vectors and fly my own approach using a STAR or simply flying downwind, making a base turn, and then final approach.  A lot of times, even when you ignore ATC vectoring, once you get within 20-30 miles of the airport it will go ahead and issue final approach clearance instructions and then you can contact the tower for landing.

Dave

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Hi Folks;

I totally agree with Dave2013 and Charliearon in my experience it has be good 95-98% of the time and i have been using it since it came out And used it with QW 757, LevelD B767, iFLY v2 747-4/8 and now the PMDG 747-4/8 So I have flown it all (heavies mostly) all IFR and it has been good. Given it's age and everything else (also free) it's the best out there.

I say that because i have the PRO ATC X and that is suppose to be one of the best if not the best "ATC" Payware out there today, and believe me there are a lot of issues i have with it that sometimes I revert back to good old FSX ATC and enjoy it better. Yes FSX ATC has it's issues which i come to expect and can work around it as Dave2013 pointed out.

You have to remember that FSX ATC does not use SID and STARS so the approaches are all calculated the best that it can given what's in the database.

In terms of one of the multiple issues i have with Pro ATC X is; my STAR approach is totally opposite (or out of the way, let's say) to the assigned runway. So up to a point on the plan i get to the last waypoint of the STAR and ATC has to Vector me for approach and landing; now here is where things often get screwed up.

  • I go past the runway at 5,000 in the opposite direction as per ATC to make a turn later which is ok
  • They then have me make a 180 degree turn to capture the glide slope for the ILS approach.

So here are the issues often associated with their calculations for approach.

  • They seldom send me out far enough, and don't have me start descending before I make the turn or during the turn.
  • So I end up capturing the glide slope too late and end up too high.
  • I word not allowed off my passengers since i have to descend at 3,500 Ft per min to capture the correct altitude for the landing
  • End up coming in too fast due to the descend rate with my speed break on full to make the landing.

So what I end up doing when in situations like this is, I am proactive and just handle everything myself by reading the charts and descending earlier so that i reach my specific altitude at the correct time and my airspeed is also correct.

My point is i got a payware to get this right and often times it does't. Surprisingly FSX ATC gets this correct more often than Pro ATC X. My issue is shared by a lot of their users There are other things that FSX ATC does better than Pro ATC X but that's another story. PRO ATC x hasn't had an update in over a year so maybe things will get better in their next update.

Of course I can fly my PMDG 747-8 without ATC with my charts, SID, STARS etc, but to me ATC gives it more of a realistic feel.

Hopefully we'll get something great from Dave Hodges and company soon.

Kindest Regards.

Forshaw.

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    I've subscribed, Dave! I used to be an IFR rated private pilot, but I'm pretty sure I couldn't tell my butt from a hole in the ground nowdays.

I've dipped a toe in the online flying world, but left because it was just silly or I was the only one there.

I'd like to take my hobby to the next level if I can.

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9 hours ago, hossfly72 said:

    I've subscribed, Dave! I used to be an IFR rated private pilot, but I'm pretty sure I couldn't tell my butt from a hole in the ground nowdays.

I've dipped a toe in the online flying world, but left because it was just silly or I was the only one there.

I'd like to take my hobby to the next level if I can.

We hot you covered my friend, seriously covered. Being a rather hardcore flight simmer myself, I wouldn't say that unkess I was certain that what I'm working on would be perfect for you brother! In fact, you might want to join our team!

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      I don't think I could bring anything worthwhile to your team, but I'd be up for some beta testing if you need an extra hand. 

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