The days after... An outside / "unbiased" uninstaller view...

[jcomm 5,890]

First off, let me start by justifying that I am posting this here because if I did so at the FLIGHT SIMULATOR ( FS 2020 ) or X-Plane forums I would be talking about "the other platform"... so here it's "neutral" terrain 🙂

It's been almost 3 days now since I was able to stare at those amazing videos of pre-alpha FLIGHT SIMULATOR. Also had the chance to listen and read what can already be said about some of the features that are coming with FS 2020, some that aren't probably going to make it's way in time for the initial release, and some which are apparently postponed for future development.

Of course I was very enthusiastic about the announcement of this re-birth of the MSFS series, and I still am, but I can't avoid comparisons, and they're even easier to do for me these days because I am somehow more away from civil simming than ever in my already long simmer life, and actually more away from the usual clichés in my discourse when I defend what a flight simulator should focus on, and how it should be done..

My main flight simulator turned out to be, since a while, War Thunder. It's actually the only tittle I play these days, although I do use X-Plane, sometimes P3D with ELITE, and IL-2 Great Battles to test new releases / updates.

So, looking at the maintstream civil simulators, and now a little bit more away from the emotional reaction to the FS 2020 announcements, I can identify some important items for my own orientation that I would like to share...

1) X-Plane 11, which recently received a major update with 11.40 regarding flight dynamics and some aspects of weather too, already does pretty much of what has been announced as the new features in FS 2020 FDM, and actually does more since it allows for the modelling of rotary wing aircraft as well as some really wild designs. It's approach to FDM has been long debated in comparison to that followed by other simulators, and we all know it has drawbacks but also some advantages. I believe that with Austin ( AFAIK the only element in LR doing that stuff ) getting back to the scene, and working on it with more dedication than what he was able to offer in the past ( XP10 and early XP11 ) will allow that sim to grow even better, offering even more room for creating excellent models to fly in it, and not lag behind other tittles, FS 2020 included;

2) FS 2020 brings a "revolutionary" scenery engine, using Bing as a base and creating a really awesome 3d environment / autogen. I seriously hope it comes with an updated World navaids / airports database too, I guess it will... 

But again, X-Plane already offers a really plausible World, allows for Orthos to be laid over it's Earth model, has updated navaids and airfields with development resulting primarily from the contribution of the growing and already huge user community, although it needs to fine tune stuff like allowing for localized area mesh editing, better autogen and algorithms to adapt it to Ortho and  other geo database sources, creating some sort of procedural method of painting / covering the terrain with the required effects based on weather conditions and season, etc... Yet, X-Plane 12 hasn't yet been announced, and we don't really know if it'll bring us exactly all of those features, and maybe a few more (?)

3) FS 2020 is a huge step forward in weather modelling from previous MSFS versions. Graphically and from the described features, it looks Amazing already, and promising for the future, but again, those features are in good part present in XP already. I have to say though that the reference to finally count humidity as a variable, and it is soooo important IRL that I never understood how it could have been left out until now, as well as the multiple layers of weather modelling ( in altitude ), and, maybe AT LAST the modelling of geopotential height and particularly the effects of cold vs hot air masses regarding altimeter readings and their correspondence with heights, look like a very significant step forward, and in this area Austin should really find here a good hint for improvement of X-plane's weather engine for XP12... But again, most of the mentioned features have long been present in X-Plane, some more recently fine tuned like the asymmetric effects of updrafts / downdrafts on different aircraft surfaces and more detailed thermal models.

4)  We don't know yet about AI, although road traffic is there and looks great and I've seen some videos with other aircraft at and near airports, but I am sure FS 2020 will at release bring it, probably, hopefully, in an even better form than previous versions have. In this area I believe X-Plane has a lot to progress too, specially Austin should finally find some way to give up on that idea of making AI aircraft as sophisticated as user aircraft in terms of flight dynamics... Same for ATC robots on both platforms - they've been really lousy 😕

5) The Moon, the Stars et al... Well, this, together with a Perpetual Calendar are features long available in MSFS, and of course ported to FS 2020, together with precise Sun ray angles depending on date and geographical location. In this particular area, so important for me, and allowing not only for the Moon with it's phases to be simulated and mimic as close as possible our RW Moon, but also the plausible daylight we have in the simulator based on date and place, are items that LR has to get into XP12 !  If they don't I will uninstall it ASAP !!!! 🙂

So... basically and as a result of the ideas and emotions having cooled down after a few days, what I mean is, it's great to know mainstream civil flight simulation is going to be shared at least by two great tittles - FS 2020 and X-Plane. I hope this will give room for both to grow bigger and better, each doing their job in a way that will please different users - guys who don't have that awful brain limitation that makes me unable to play more than one tittle in flight simulation at the same time, specially if they cover similar areas 😕

Yours Truly, 

The Uninstaller

Edited October 2, 2019 by jcomm

[leon310 26]

I can't wait until Microsoft FS2020 goes on the market. Then I want to hear what you have to say.

flight dynamics is the number one priority for me in a flight simulator.  I do not care about scenery, moon, sun, terrian, ect... This is why x-plane is the simulator for me.

Bottom line, use the simulator of your choice and have fun. I love flight simulation. It has consumed my life. The only thing better is women.

Edited October 2, 2019 by leon310

[Humpty 751]

For me XP is a love hate relationship , it still has many underlying issues that need to be solved. But i only use XP.

Yes it's improving and 11.40 has been great with the helis , the wind seems to be better. And i am enjoying the squirrel even more, VRS seems to have been fixed this time around.  

MFS 2020 or whatever its called is a day one purchase for me if the price is affordable.  According to the reviews it has a lot a of advanced stuff. It's mouth watering what the videos show.

even if MFS is great in every aspect , don't think i will remove XP. 

let's see how it all pans out. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by HumptyDumpty

[Alec 370]

Excellent points Jose! We get carried away from the enthusiasm, but the reality is that Xplane does a lot of things right, it has been the best we have for a long time in key areas in a Civil Sim, and I don´t think we should remove it from the game, there´s a lot to happen still, and too little information to take definitive sides.

There is one crucial thing in my opinion though, and that is something that can result in either X-Plane being a competitor, or going to limbo, like MS Flight, and many others before have gone. And that is FOCUS. If Austin and his team don´t focus, and get to work on features that are no longer acceptable to leave absent after FS2020, and include in XP12, I don´t think X-Plane will be able to keep the momentum, after so many years without proper competition.

Flight Dynamics is something that has always been a central part for Austin and his team. A lot is done right, some isn´t. The issue is the speed developers are able to keep up, and we usually have addons almost a year using outdated flight models, after we know what was wrong with the previous one. There must be a way for Devs to work closer, and at the same page as the changes happen.

Now, one thing that needs a DESPERATE overhaul is Weather. FS2020 looks like it´s going to blow X-Plane out of the water on this one, and it´s so crucial to a proper flight simulation, that I believe once you get used to a good one, there´s no turning back. If Austin and his team aren´t working on a completely new system for this, they are already months, if not years behind schedule.

The visuals, cities, photoreal coverage of the world, is something that only a company with resources as Microsoft can get to work as well as it looks like it´s going to be. It takes tons of server power, network capacity and know how. But X-Plane can sure upgrade this area with different thinking and improvements in the engine.

I´m not a personal fan of AI ATC, so I don´t have much of a comment on this one.

That´s what I think, based on text the legendary Uninstaller gave regarding the topic!

[Bert Pieke 7,584]

Looking at the videos, visually, I think MSFS2020 is much better than anything I have seen before.. that is most promising.

If the cockpits get the same care as the outside world, I could see myself spending a lot of time flying some of my favorite routes.

Performance is always a big question... and since my P3DV4.5. / Orbx world is currently performing very smoothly for me and giving me much joy, I can patiently wait until this title comes out.  As a matter of fact, based on the videos, I went and flew out of Renton, WA in my Baytower RV7A and can report that Orbx PNW does a very nice job of this area.

In years gone by, I have always purchased the "new" MSFS releases, often coupled with investing in new hardware to match.. so if history is a guide, this may happen once more in 2020.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Bert Pieke

[Murmur 3,941]

I might be pessimistic (from a LR point of view), but I think the landscape will return to what it was 10 years ago, with MFS gaining a de-facto monopoly (or close to). I could make a long essay on why I think so, but it winds down to 2 main reasons, i.e. the immense amount of resources MS is throwing at it, and the focus that MS/ASOBO have apparently showed so far in this project.

MFS will probably miss a few key elements at launch, but I don't think it will matter a lot given the scope of continued development they have pledged to.

Of course many people will still use XP just as many people used XP9 years ago or Aerofly today.

 

[jcomm 5,890]

All good points - thank you for all your comments!

One aspect that LR really has to re-think, or simply forget about if they don't really care about the competition - and that may well be the case... - is STABILITY.

In good truth we have now FS 2020 using pretty much the same approach XP uses for it's FDM. It's after all the same other flight simulators have been using for quite a long time. It was the base for Flight Unlimited - introduced by it's creator in FU1, and further developed for FU2 and 3, but also Fly! and Fly!2.

BeT is really not what XP does IMHO, at least in it's "full" form. It indeed does a mutli-surface model analysis where aeroforces are calculated for each element that can create lift / drag and / or thrust and then composed to find the final resultant.  This is not full BeT, like it is done in some fields of engineering, but rather an approach to the concept, and it's certainly nothing new and unique... IL-2 uses it since the early versions, FU used it, as well AEFS, DCS, and my beloved War Thunder too. Their implementations may differ a bit, but they converge in their end results. FS 2020 also appears to model complex interaction between these elements, the kind of stuff that Austin keeps fine tuning along the various XP versions ( clipping / shadowing effects as well as impact on the reference airflow just recently further fine tuned for 11.40 ).

Now, for developers wanting to port their aircraft into FS 2020 from previous versions, there will be a steep learning process, and a lot of work required to adapt to this new framework, same as those who tries and those who were able to roduce aircraft for MSFS and XP. The difference lays more on the stability of the platform. In XP stability isn't unfortunately, for the good and for the bad, the rule, and Austin can suddenly wake up from a Patent Trolls nightmare and introduce a new interesting feature making the life really hard for 3pds because their clients will want to test it with the "experimental fm" and step into a lot of quirks... I think that in order to become competitive, for XP12 LR should really work ver cautiously to prepare the FDM and make it stable and pretty much unchanged, with just small fixes along it's ride. I believe that's after all one of the reasons for the success of the MSFS series, and I still remember the problems introduced in the fs9 --> fsx transition due to some "simplifications" 😕

Edited October 3, 2019 by jcomm

[Humpty 751]

At least with helis it's got much better and what i am hoping from LR are two things :

Wx.

Vulkan.

Vulkan is promised for 11.50 so fingers crossed

 What i feel these two are major points.  Xenviro is great but it's still being limited by the core sim.

[jcomm 5,890]

Zufli,

one thing that immediately came into my mind was Africa, and how it'll look in FS 2020 :-)

You'll just miss the heli to fly over it, but maybe someone finds a way around, using the SDK... and some external FM for rotaries...

[Humpty 751]

6 minutes ago, jcomm said:

Zufli,

one thing that immediately came into my mind was Africa, and how it'll look in FS 2020 🙂

You'll just miss the heli to fly over it, but maybe someone finds a way around, using the SDK... and some external FM for rotaries...

Believe me , even XP11 with Z17 Africa is gorgeous , and i am using the Bing orthos. some little issues yes. and using Xvision it's really nice , ofc the daylight is always the same in part of the world in XP.

Don't know if MFS will have a different satellite imagery from what we see, because the whole world does not have great satellite coverage at least the Northern areas.

[leon310 26]

FS2020 is not going to hurt x-plane. I have heard Austin say many times, "I know how to compete with Microsoft". And I am to going follow Austin and buy a Tesla.

X-plane is the simulator for me.

Cheers

[jcomm 5,890]

1 hour ago, leon310 said:

FS2020 is not going to hurt x-plane. I have heard Austin say many times, "I know how to compete with Microsoft". And I am to going follow Austin and buy a Tesla.

X-plane is the simulator for me.

Cheers

Hey !  I want to follow him too, and buy a Tesla and that Lancair Evolution too, but... well, I'd be glad if I could buy a new PC to run XP12 and FS 2020 … Wellzzzz Let's wait and see!

AH! At least War Thunder runs super smooth and beautiful, at 120+ on my 2012 PC!!!!!  I can wait, I'm not stressed with the future - just with finding out how to get more Silver Lions and Golden Eagles...