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JustanotherPilot

Boeing 797 Launch...Maybe?

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Last I read was that Boeing postponed the decision whether to launch the 797 program to next year when it was expected there would be a decision this year. This upset some airlines interested in the 797.

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Given that the "Boeing 797" name was to be the Boeing Sonic Cruiser...I'm wondering if they will call the new airplane that -- if they decide to go forward.

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If I was them I would rename the 787 and have the 797 called something else, they should differentiate the future of that company away from a 1960s based nomenclature.

The 787 should never have been a 7-series aircraft in the first place, time to move forward

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44 minutes ago, Matthew Kane said:

The 787 should never have been a 7-series aircraft in the first place, time to move forward

Why is that?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, FDEdev said:

Why is that?

Because it was called the Yellowstone Project, which was supposed to replace the entire 7-Series family with a next generation of modern aircraft to bring Boeing into a modern aviation company.

Yellowstone Project was supposed to have 3 new airliners, the first one being what became the 787, it was never supposed to be part of the 7-Series in the first place, but they abandoned the other two aircraft in Yellowstone Project and called it a 787, and to save money revamped the 737 and 777. in retrospect they should have seen Yellowstone Project through and replaced the 7-Series entirely, the failure of the other two aircraft is what is keeping Boeing stuck in the past, and the 7-Series is a bad reminder of that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Yellowstone_Project

Edited by Matthew Kane
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World air regulators no longer have trust in the FAA after 737max, and may remain grounded until they pass it fit to fly.

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Oh, they said NMA(or 797 here) will be launch in "next year"... from about 2015 or even earlier?

BTW when 787 was called 7E7, I quite love that name.

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On 10/9/2019 at 10:49 AM, rjfry said:

World air regulators no longer have trust in the FAA after 737max, and may remain grounded until they pass it fit to fly.

Didnt easa still let the max fly until the Faa grounded it??  I can't remember 

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3 hours ago, fluffyflops said:

Didnt easa still let the max fly until the Faa grounded it??  I can't remember 

The FAA grounded it after airlines started to but now the damage is that the FAA and Boeing were working hand in glove and Boeing was self regulating the aircraft, now national regulators think they worked to close and may not pass the max until they test it themselves. 

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1 hour ago, Anders Bermann said:

Is the MAX debacle over or are they still grounded?

Still grounded. Boeing are expected to hand in a certification package this month for the FAA to review. Boeing I think are still hoping for it to get re-certified in November but around January seems more likely. When it's cleared to go fly again it will probably take some two to three months for airlines to fully get them back into service. This is just for the US though, no one knows if other regulators will test and certify the aircraft themselves this time and how long that would take.

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And the 737NG debacle is just starting to unfold...

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1 hour ago, threegreen said:

Still grounded. Boeing are expected to hand in a certification package this month for the FAA to review. Boeing I think are still hoping for it to get re-certified in November but around January seems more likely. When it's cleared to go fly again it will probably take some two to three months for airlines to fully get them back into service. This is just for the US though, no one knows if other regulators will test and certify the aircraft themselves this time and how long that would take.

Thanks a lot for the round up.

Appreciated! 

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6 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

And the 737NG debacle is just starting to unfold...

Debacle? Because 13 jets have been grounded for repairs?

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The latest estimate is that at least 5% of the worldwide NG fleet is affected.

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Boeing are having a boardroom re-shuffle and are in DC soon for tough questioning.

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Cracks in the NG and the first generation are nothing new. When you have a short haul with that many cycles in one day this causes cracks over time. Aloha Airlines Flight 243 was because of this and they have known that ever since. 13 out of the 4500 in service with some cracks is normal to be honest considering the amount of use this aircraft gets. They are far more vigilant about this issue then they were back in the 80s and this issue has been known for decades now. These new cracks are in the wing area that join to the aircraft which was supposed to be good for 90,000 cycles, a very small number of aircraft are showing premature cracking out of the large majority.

Edited by Matthew Kane
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On 10/12/2019 at 11:44 AM, rjfry said:

Boeing are having a boardroom re-shuffle and are in DC soon for tough questioning.

nothing will happen to boeing, i can promise you.

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15 hours ago, Matthew Kane said:

Cracks in the NG and the first generation are nothing new. When you have a short haul with that many cycles in one day this causes cracks over time. Aloha Airlines Flight 243 was because of this and they have known that ever since. 13 out of the 4500 in service with some cracks is normal to be honest considering the amount of use this aircraft gets. They are far more vigilant about this issue then they were back in the 80s and this issue has been known for decades now. These new cracks are in the wing area that join to the aircraft which was supposed to be good for 90,000 cycles, a very small number of aircraft are showing premature cracking out of the large majority.

This guy gets it, 

ive lost count of how many times Ive seen an aircraft on the "AOG Board" at work with "crack, needs inspection/crass, awaiting boeing"   and thats on the jumbo

Edited by fluffyflops

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Europe will not clear the MAX until it`s pilot`s have tested the plane say the EASA .

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16 hours ago, Matthew Kane said:

Cracks in the NG and the first generation are nothing new. When you have a short haul with that many cycles in one day this causes cracks over time. Aloha Airlines Flight 243 was because of this and they have known that ever since. 13 out of the 4500 in service with some cracks is normal to be honest considering the amount of use this aircraft gets. They are far more vigilant about this issue then they were back in the 80s and this issue has been known for decades now. These new cracks are in the wing area that join to the aircraft which was supposed to be good for 90,000 cycles, a very small number of aircraft are showing premature cracking out of the large majority.

That's wrong according to engineers and industry insiders on other aviation sites.

The part, 'pickle fork', is supposed to be a part that lasts the lifetime of the airframe as it is a critical piece, connecting the wing to the fuselage.

The issue was only discovered by accident during pax 2 freighter conversions and seems to be caused by retrofitting winglets. The cause for concern is that cracks are apperaing after only 1/3 of the lifetime cycles.

It's now above 5% of the total worldwide 737NG fleet and is a big issue as it's not an easy area of the aircraft to inspect.

Edited by F737NG
Typos

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54 minutes ago, F737NG said:

That's wrong according to engineers and industry insiders on other aviation sites.

The pickle forks are rated for 90,000 cycles and they are failing on some at or around 30,000 cycles. Nothing is really 'Lifetime' as that can always change with the age of the product. Reasons this recall could be

1. Fault in the assembly process, ie wrong torque on assembly causing extra stress etc

2. The alloy used in a batch wasn't up to standard, which wouldn't cover the entire fleet but that batch of parts that may have failed.

None of this can be confirmed for some time. It doesn't look fleet wide at this point as a more isolated event. They are taking the precautions which is good.

Lots of people saying lots of things online and that is fine. I would rather narrow it down rather than the broad speculation that these forums can bring. I'm just going to focus in the things that makes most sense until Boeing can determine this for themselves. Until then their is no right or wrong, just looking at the facts available. 

 

Edited by Matthew Kane

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13 hours ago, Matthew Kane said:

The pickle forks are rated for 90,000 cycles and they are failing on some at or around 30,000 cycles. Nothing is really 'Lifetime' as that can always change with the age of the product. Reasons this recall could be

1. Fault in the assembly process, ie wrong torque on assembly causing extra stress etc

2. The alloy used in a batch wasn't up to standard, which wouldn't cover the entire fleet but that batch of parts that may have failed.

None of this can be confirmed for some time. It doesn't look fleet wide at this point as a more isolated event. They are taking the precautions which is good.

How can it be an isolated event when multiple airlines across different continents are affected? Over 5% of tested 737NG are showing a problem. A lot of airframes remain untested at this stage.

Of course they're taking precautions. Another 737-shaped hole in the ground would almost certainly bring Boeing to its knees.

The concern is that this safety critical part was found to be showing damage at 1/3 of its life expectancy and even then it was discovered by accident.

On 10/3/2019 at 4:46 AM, JustanotherPilot said:

I hope Boeing don't miss the boat with the release of the 797, the MAX debacle has really put them behind and it would appear Airbus A320/A321 NEO and LR/XLR are taking a lot of orders to fill the void. Anyway, the 797 looks promising.

link to AirlineRatings 797 story

With the 797, it looks uncomfortably placed between popular short-haul airframes and long-haul ones. Rather than see this as a gap in the market, it could be described as the 'jack of all trades, master of none' segment. Look at the cluster groupings in the diagram below. There is a gap, but can it be exploited?

F-NMA.jpg


What makes current types very useful is their ability to be flexible and cover a different mission profile relatively efficiently in otherwise downtime.
Airlines can 'abuse' a 777W to do HKG - PEK - HKG carrying pax volume, before a trip to LHR. A 737 can do DUB - BHX - DUB - LRH - DUB - SXF - DUB - MAN - DUB and still have 7 hours downtime for maintenance.

Could a 797 as currently envisaged really turn-around fast enough for more legs or carry enough passengers on fewer legs to justify the extra capital cost of a new type purchase for airlines over and above 'abusing' what they already own / lease cheaply?

Edited by F737NG
Added diagram
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