VR and IFR

[ark 1,288]

I posted similar to the below in the VR poll thread but the thread was shut down before there was time for anyone to respond.

I have never used VR and know essentially nothing about it. Most of my flying is IFR and all the recent VR 'discussion' has triggered some questions for me:

1. I use a 2nd monitor to hold various IFR charts and a moving map so I can quickly move back and forth between the VC and the charts ( I currently use TrackIR ) -- how is that handled in VR?

2. I have written many Lua scripts that, through FSUIPC, let me do things like bring up checklists, enter courses, altitudes and headings very conveniently using the keyboard numpad, reposition the a/c, and generally enhance the flying experience by reducing the need to find mouse click spots when bouncing around under IFR conditions, etc . These scripts are triggered by keyboard keys and buttons on various controllers. How would I find the keys and buttons when using VR?

3. Does the mouse work the same with VR as with a monitor to operate 'buttons' in the VC, e.g., to operate a Garmin GTN750 GPS, etc ?

Thx,

Al

Edit: Thetford569, Nickhod,

Thanks for the helpful inputs below,  gives me a little better feel for the VR operational environment. My sense is the less dependent one is on external hardware, the better the VR experience would be. Perhaps it has been done, but it would be interesting to have a study level a/c developed from the 'ground up' with VR operation as a design goal. [Responding here because could not respond below for some reason]

Al

Edited October 6, 2019 by ark

[thetford569 104]

It would depend on the implementation of VR in the sim by the developers but here is how others have done it:

In DCS and I believe XPlane (although I have never used XPlane) there is a virtual kneeboard that you can load with your charts and checklists to cycle through and view in VR.  I read yesterday that Navigraph Charts are accessible in VR for XPlane.

All buttons are clickable with the mouse just like using TrackIR.

I have all the buttons on my joystick programmed for the flight controls and other common switches.  Really haven’t had much need to be out of VR to do anything else.  In a civilian sim looking at VFR/IFR charts and approach plates I do imagine it will be more difficult to implement however I don’t think it’s impossible to do and make it good in VR.

Brandon

 

[nickhod 425]

1) In SteamVR and Oculus VR there are applications or in-built ways for "pinning" an external window in your VR space. That external window can contain your charts etc.
The ideal would be having a virtual tablet implemented in the sim that you can mount on your virtual yoke.

2) You'll be surprised how you get muscle memory. While in VR I operate various buttons on my hardware just fine. I even use a keyboard sometimes by finding the raised bits on the F & J keys.

3) You'd typically use the VR controllers to interface with things in the cockpit. Some sims use a "laser pointer" type interface, where you just point at the control you want to change. Some sims require you to actually reach for the control. There are pros and cons to each approach.

[Flybynumbers 42]

1 hour ago, nickhod said:

1) In SteamVR and Oculus VR there are applications or in-built ways for "pinning" an external window in your VR space. That external window can contain your charts etc.
The ideal would be having a virtual tablet implemented in the sim that you can mount on your virtual yoke.

2) You'll be surprised how you get muscle memory. While in VR I operate various buttons on my hardware just fine. I even use a keyboard sometimes by finding the raised bits on the F & J keys.

3) You'd typically use the VR controllers to interface with things in the cockpit. Some sims use a "laser pointer" type interface, where you just point at the control you want to change. Some sims require you to actually reach for the control. There are pros and cons to each approach.

Why not just use a physical panel and save all the hassle? I'd give it a whirl for VFR flying but trying to do IFR in VR would be cumbersome.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Flybynumbers

[HiFlyer 9,345]

[Dominique_K 10,133]

Hey Nick

Was it not the idea behind haptic gloves, to feel switches/buttons in a virtual world ? Not ready for prime time yet ?

[dilore 126]

I'm by no means a VR expert (and not even a user yet), but couldn't 'passthrough on demand' be a solution?

With this you can see your surroundings, keyboard, controls, pad or a second monitor.

[FDEdev 955]

How do you write down a clearance in VR?

 

[nickhod 425]

1 hour ago, domkle said:

Was it not the idea behind haptic gloves, to feel switches/buttons in a virtual world ? Not ready for prime time yet ?

They've always been clunky. Finger tracking (without gloves) is approaching prime time. This will be great for VR simming as you wont have to reach for a controller to interact with the cockpit.

 

30 minutes ago, dilore said:

I'm by no means a VR expert (and not even a user yet), but couldn't 'passthrough on demand' be a solution?

It could definitely help. Higher resolution front cameras will give a better experience.
It's not the case that you have to take the headset off though to see your surroundings though. You can just push it up to your forehead temporarily.

 

25 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

How do you write down a clearance in VR?

Right now, the easiest would be to push your headset up to your forehead and grab a pen and paper.
As all this matures and finger tracking is perfected, I expect you'd reach for your virtual pen and paper, or type on your virtual tablet.

I've yet to get into VATSIM so I've never tried it.

[vortex681 806]

11 hours ago, HiFlyer said:

Who are you accusing of trolling? No one seems to be trying to provoke an argument.

[LHookins 3,102]

16 hours ago, ark said:

1. I use a 2nd monitor to hold various IFR charts and a moving map so I can quickly move back and forth between the VC and the charts ( I currently use TrackIR ) -- how is that handled in VR?

This is important and we need to know the options.  This is how I prefer to fly, with real world charts.

Hook

[ark 1,288]

The more I think about this, it does seem VR does not currently lend itself well to IFR flying. While immersion and realism can often be mutually supportive, they can also be at odds. The copying a clearance point made above is one example. Another example is use of a tablet. It is becoming increasingly common, both in GA and with the airlines, to make use of a tablet, e.g., an iPad, along with software like ForeFlight, when flying IFR.  So I have been thinking of doing something similar in the sim -- would be a replacement for my 2nd monitor and a step up in realism, but would not lend itself to VR immersion it seems. I have also been contemplating upgrading my Saitek yoke and throttle. To this end I have been following the development of the Honeycomb system which among other apparent advantages offers an array of hardware switches and a gear lever. It would seem making good use of this hardware under VR would not be particularly convenient although muscle memory and the unique shape (wheel) of the gear lever would help somewhat. And conveniently using the keyboard is another issue. It just seems to me when it comes to utilizing 'real' hardware with VR, you are somewhat forced into the 'groping' mode. Admittedly, however, I have no first hand VR experience at this point.

As I mentioned above, it might be interesting if a VR company would design a high quality a/c and IFR system combination 'from the ground up'. My initial concern would be to what extent you would end up with 'heavy' reliance on the mouse. I find trying to locate and activate mouse click spots irritating at best even when not bouncing around in any turbulence. And based on the info so far regarding FS2020, more realistic 'bouncing' can be expected. It is for this reason I've written Lua scripts which significantly reduce the need to use the mouse.

As always, "to each their own."

Al   

Edited October 6, 2019 by ark

[HiFlyer 9,345]

8 hours ago, dilore said:

I'm by no means a VR expert (and not even a user yet), but couldn't 'passthrough on demand' be a solution?

With this you can see your surroundings, keyboard, controls, pad or a second monitor.

There was something is saw that lets you map your Vr controls to the same location as your physical ones.

 

[irrics 1,517]

One thing that VR can seriously replicate about IFR is spatial disorientation and the need to truly fly the instruments. 

[ark 1,288]

3 hours ago, HiFlyer said:

There was something is saw that lets you map your Vr controls to the same location as your physical ones.

That seems like a step in the 'right direction'.  😉