VR and IFR

[David Mills 4,722]

23 hours ago, ark said:

I have never used VR and know essentially nothing about it. Most of my flying is IFR and all the recent VR 'discussion' has triggered some questions for me:

 

The first and only thing you need to know about flying IFR with VR is that the instruments are unreadable. And I do mean that the instruments are quite literally unreadable from the normal pilot's perspective in the cockpit. Now, if you touch your forehead against the instrument panel from one inch away, then (and only then) can you occasionally discern what the readout might be. So the idea of using VR to view highly detailed IFR charts is truly a joke. You're vastly overestimating the current resolution of VR. Plus, using the mouse in VR within the current P3D is also pretty much impossible. Perhaps the instruments will respond to the mouse on the eight or tenth attempted click.

What I'll sometimes do -- with my Oculus Rift -- is use VR to look out the window after I've already set up all the instruments using several monitors. But even here, the outside-the-window view in VR is very dull in color and focus. Current VR looks like videos on YouTube that show you what the world looks like to someone with advanced cataracts: blurry, dull in color saturation and brightness, and very frustrating. I do love the feeling that VR gives you of being immersed within the aircraft. But there needs to be a mega step forward in VR hardware and resolution before you can use a VR headset the way you're asking about: for IFR VR. Again, you're overestimating the resolution and usability of current VR hardware. This current problem with VR resolution is probably why Microsoft is subordinating VR to other, higher priorities within the sim. Even the finest software implementation of VR by Microsoft could not overcome the current, inherent hardware limitations of VR, which, to most newcomers, are very disappointing.

VR currently works well if you're looking at a large object that is very close to you, such as a dinosaur three feet from your face that is trying to eat you. But objects at a distance -- or small objects on a flight panel -- look very bad, if you can see them at all.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by David Mills

[whitav8 98]

With Windows 10 build 1903 WMR, we can pin any window and import it into any VR app including those that are SteamVR. Another means to setup many complex flight modes in VR is via voice commands - this works especially well for Radio tuning - just say "tune 123.5 " . Very much like the interface to our newer cars. In fact, Cortana could be our SIRI for VR. I find voice commands to be like reading from a checklist (from the above-mentioned window ) to my non-flying co-pilot. Example: "Gear up, set flaps 10, Autothrottle speed 210, engage LNAV and VNAV, etc..."

 

@David Mills,

     Please try an HP Reverb (Win 10 build 1903 with all KB fixes, SteamVR 1.8.9, SS at 2160x2116 ) - clarity for instrument panel!

[Nedo68 533]

Big VR fan here since 2012.

for VFR its perfect for immersion and alot of fun, i talk about GA and gliders, casual flying,

i stopped flying 2D a few years ago.

But when FS2020 come, I'm going to have to fly in 2D tho 😉 yet I'm sure I'll enjoy it!

 

 

 

 

[Ron Attwood 3,464]

7 minutes ago, Nedo68 said:

I'm going to have to fly in 2D tho 😉 yet I'm sure I'll enjoy it!

Not for long I bet.

Despite all the ruckus that's been going on in this place lately, I'd be mightily surprised if VR isn't available right off the bat. MS has probably got their finger on the pulse.

*Retires to air raid shelter.*

[HiFlyer 9,343]

21 hours ago, David Mills said:

VR currently works well if you're looking at a large object that is very close to you, such as a dinosaur three feet from your face that is trying to eat you. But objects at a distance -- or small objects on a flight panel -- look very bad, if you can see them at all.

Seems like there is something very wrong with your VR.

Edited October 7, 2019 by n4gix
Deleted excessive quote. Again!

[nickhod 425]

12 hours ago, David Mills said:

The first and only thing you need to know about flying IFR with VR is that the instruments are unreadable. And I do mean that the instruments are quite literally unreadable from the normal pilot's perspective in the cockpit. Now, if you touch your forehead against the instrument panel from one inch away, then (and only then) can you occasionally discern what the readout might be. So the idea of using VR to view highly detailed IFR charts is truly a joke. You're vastly overestimating the current resolution of VR.

VR has a long way to go, no doubt, and I'm looking forward to getting something like a HP Reverb or HTC Cosmos for the next up step in resolution. However, I think this is overstating the case even with 1st generation headsets. It's a shame if people accept this as reality without trying VR for themselves.

I fly IFR in VR very often with a Rift. I move my head a bit closer to the Garmin or radio stack to control it, but nowhere near "touching your forehead against the instrument panel". My vision is near 20/20 so I guess that helps.

As for viewing IFR charts in VR. Just zoom in until you can read it. Worst case, pause the sim, switch to virtual desktop and view it in a virtual 40 inch monitor.

None of these undeniable hassles with VR make we want to go back to using monitors.
I was so immersed in a flight the other night I attempted to put the Oculus controller down on the Cessna's co-pilot seat. You can't get that staring at a monitor.

If 4k (vertical res) headsets like the HP Reverb don't do it for you, 8k headsets are a long, long way off due to the GPU horsepower that will be required to push that kind of resolution. (5 - 7 years I'd say).

I'd rather enjoy what's here now and make it work for me.

[mpo910 2,112]

On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 11:40 AM, ark said:

As always, "to each their own."

Al   

Well...

I am using just only VR incl. all my Hardware without removing my HMD headset:

Thustmaster Warthog-Throttle, -Stick, Thustmaster Rudder Pedals, Mouse, Keyboard

I Marked some extra keys with elements I can "feel" better to know where I am on my keyboard so that I can click knobs with just one hand instead of both (quick clicks for quick actions like Tab for GSX, or numbers, AND I am using "MCE" (MultiCrewExperience) to "speak" commands via VOX Scripts so a lot is done on Spoken commands (Gear Up/Down, Lights on/off, Weather Radar on/off, reply to ATC, Slats/Flaps setting, etc. This tool is so powerfull. It is like FSCrew but more powerfull and not binded to one plane. It serves "N" planes with very good co-Pilot functionality and a much better "understanding" and "Interpratation" of my voice commands.

So I can use all my hardware "Blind" and actually NEVER have to take a look to them. You will be stunning how quick you learn to find your hardware without having a look (memory). The only thing is: They have to be always in the same "location" where you would like to use them. But that is usually the case.

The only thing left is, writing.....that is indeed an issue. (Taxi routes, clearance, etc.)

Edited October 7, 2019 by n4gix
Deleted excessive quote. Again!

[vortex681 806]

On 10/6/2019 at 6:04 PM, irrics said:

One thing that VR can seriously replicate about IFR is spatial disorientation and the need to truly fly the instruments. 

I'm assuming that you're not a real world pilot as that's not how spatial disorientation happens in the real world. Spatial disorientation is caused by conflicting information from your inner ears making you think things are happening when they're not. The fact that your body, and hence your inner ear, isn't actually moving means that the cues which would cause the disorientation in the real world are not there.

[irrics 1,517]

43 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

I'm assuming that you're not a real world pilot as that's not how spatial disorientation happens in the real world. Spatial disorientation is caused by conflicting information from your inner ears making you think things are happening when they're not. The fact that your body, and hence your inner ear, isn't actually moving means that the cues which would cause the disorientation in the real world are not there.

Yes I’m a real pilot (flying today in fact) and I’m aware that it operates differently in a real plane.  What I meant is that it simulates the confusion and lack of inputs (correct ones) - but with a different method of doing that.

The point is - it can make you really need to focus on the instruments alone in an isolated and anxiety inducing way (inside a VR headset with no references to ground any of your senses and conflicting visual cues at times, etc).

All simulations are making tradeoffs vs reality, but that doesn’t mean they can’t simulate many of the aspects, albeit accomplished differently.

Edited October 7, 2019 by irrics

[Casualcas 830]

On 10/6/2019 at 1:04 PM, irrics said:

One thing that VR can seriously replicate about IFR is spatial disorientation and the need to truly fly the instruments. 

Oh man is that true. And had to do just that yesterday flying into milford sound nz. The Altitude was visually misleading between the cliffs. 

[vortex681 806]

15 hours ago, irrics said:

The point is - it can make you really need to focus on the instruments alone in an isolated and anxiety inducing way (inside a VR headset with no references to ground any of your senses and conflicting visual cues at times, etc).

But that applies equally to using a monitor. The fact that you're viewing it in 3D doesn't make instrument flying any more realistic or difficult. VR may make some things realistic but I can't see that spatial disorientation is one of them because of the mechanism involved.

15 hours ago, Casualcas said:

Oh man is that true. And had to do just that yesterday flying into milford sound nz. The Altitude was visually misleading between the cliffs. 

That's more a visual illusion that spatial disorientation. Spatial disorientation has been the cause of many accidents over the years but VR doesn't make it more likely in a sim. My point was that in the sim you're still using the same instrument panel - the fact that it may look 3D isn't going to make you more likely to become disorientated as your body still isn't moving whether you use VR or a monitor. VR can certainly cause motion sickness but spatial disorientation is all about the perception that something is happening when it isn't (or vice versa) without you necessarily feeling ill.

Edited October 8, 2019 by vortex681

[FDEdev 955]

10 minutes ago, vortex681 said:

But that applies equally to using a monitor. The fact that you're viewing it in 3D doesn't make instrument flying any more realistic or difficult. VR may make some things realistic but I can't see that spatial disorientation is one of them because of the mechanism involved.

That's more a visual illusion that spatial disorientation. Spatial disorientation has been the cause of many accidents over the years but VR doesn't make it more likely in a sim. My point was that in the sim you're still using the same instrument panel - the fact that it may look 3D isn't going to make you more likely to become disorientated as your body still isn't moving whether you use VR or a monitor. VR can certainly cause motion sickness but spatial disorientation is all about the perception that something is happening when it isn't (or vice versa) without you necessarily feeling ill.

+1  

Furthermore I've read already numerous times that RW tend to get nauseous more easily with VR because the missing feeling/sensation of motion isn't matching the visuals.

I've noticed that in Level-D sims when the motion failed and we tried to continue the session without motion.

If you stay on instruments, its less of a problem, but once you start looking outside and start maneuvering, things get ugly fast.

[Dominique_K 10,133]

 An excellent detailed description of spatial disorientation

 https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Spatial_Disorientation

from which I draw 

There are two main types of spatial disorientation “illusions” that humans are susceptible to in flight:

somatogravic – experiencing linear acceleration/deceleration as climbing/descending.

somatogyral – not detecting movement or perceiving movement in a different (mostly opposite) direction to reality.

 

[irrics 1,517]

5 hours ago, FDEdev said:

Furthermore I've read already numerous times that RW tend to get nauseous more easily with VR because the missing feeling/sensation of motion isn't matching the visuals.

Side question:  What's "RW"?

 

In my experience with getting even a touch nautious in VR, it was solely and only about sim/HMD/FPS performance.

Of course people are all different.

I would add that many people get motion sick in real planes also.

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by irrics

[irrics 1,517]

5 hours ago, vortex681 said:

But that applies equally to using a monitor.

Wish it did - Doesn't.

There's something about the isolation of the environment that (being in the headset) that's hard to explain.  You can literally be lost in that world.