Preview Of Non-Photogrammetry City Center?

[Shack95 2,658]

11 hours ago, Mucker said:

Is there a list anywhere of the 400 cities they have photogrammetry for?

This is a list from Earth View:

Australia:

• Canberra
• Darwin
• Gold Coast
• Hobart
• Newcastle
• Wollongong

Belgium:

• Brussels

Canada:

• Calgary
• Edmonton
• Hamilton
• London
• Montreal
• Ottawa
• Quebec
• Toronto
• Vancouver
• Victoria
• Winnipeg

Denmark:

• Copenhagen

France:

• Aix-en-Provence
• Bordeaux
• Lille
• Marseille                    
• Montpellier
• Rennes
• Rouen
• Strasbourg

Germany:

• Aachen
• Augsburg
• Berlin
• Braunschweig
• Bremen
• Dresden
• Duisburg
• Halle
• Hamburg
• Karlsruhe
• Kiel
• Leipzig
• Magdeburg
• Mannheim
• Mönchengladbach
• Munich
• Münster
• Nuremberg

Italy:

• Bari
• Bologna
• Catania
• Florence
• Milan
• Naples
• Palermo
• Rome
• Venice
• Verona

Spain:

• Alicante
• Barcelona
• Córdoba
• Madrid
• Marbella
• Murcia
• Pamplona
• Seville
• Valencia
• Vigo

Switzerland:

• Zürich

UK:

• Portsmouth
• Southampton

USA:

• Birmingham AL
• Mobile AL
• Montgomery AL
• Little Rock AR
• Anthem AZ
• Carefree AZ
• Phoenix AZ
• San Tan Valley AZ
• Tempe AZ
• Tuscon AZ
• Anaheim CA
• Bakersfield CA
• Desert Hot Springs CA
• Foster City CA
• Fremont CA
• Fresno CA
• Glendale CA
• Hollywood CA
• Long Beach CA
• Los Angeles CA
• Modesto CA
• Oxnard CA
• Palm Springs CA
• Richmond CA
• Sacramento River CA
• San Bernardina CA
• San Diego CA
• San Francisco CA
• San José CA
• Santa Ana CA
• Santa Barbara CA
• Santa Clarita CA
• Santa Cruz CA
• Santa Monica CA
• Sacramento CA
• Simi Valley CA
• Stockton CA
• Temecula CA
• Yucaipa CA
• Boulder CO
• Colorado Springs CO
• Denver CO
• Bridgeport CT
• Stamford CT
• Dover DE
• Wilmington DE
• Brandon FL
• Clermont FL
• Daytona Beach FL
• Flagler Beach FL
• Fort Lauderdale FL
• Dort Myers FL
• Gainesville FL
• Gulf Breeze FL
• Immokalee FL
• Jacksonville FL
• Key West FL
• Lakeland FL
• Leesburg FL
• Marco Island FL
• Miami FL
• Ocala FL
• Orlando FL
• Sarasota FL
• Sebring FL
• Tallahassee FL
• Tampa FL
• Universal Studios FL
• Venice FL
• Walt Disney World Resort FL
• Atlanta GA
• Augusta GA
• Columbus GA
• Marietta GA
• Des Moines IA
• Champaign IL
• Chicago IL
• Springfield IL
• Indianapolis IN
• Topeka KS
• Louisville KY
• Baton Rouge LA
• New Orleans LA
• Shreveport LA
• Boston MA
• Springfield MA
• Worcester MA
• Baltimore MD
• Augusta ME
• Portland ME
• Ann Arbor MI
• Detroit MI
• Minneapolis MN
• Jefferson City MO
• Kansas City MO
• Saint Louis MO
• Springfield MO
• Gulfport MS
• Jackson MS
• Durham NC
• Greensboro NC
• Bismarck ND
• Lincoln NE
• Omaha NE
• Concord NH
• Liberty Island
• Newark NJ
• Toms River NJ
• Trenton NJ
• Albuquerque NM
• Bernalillo County NM
• Las Cruces NM
• Santa Fe NM
• Carson City NV
• Las Vegas NV
• Reno NV
• New York City NY
• Niagara Falls NY
• Syracuse NY
• Cincinnati OH
• Cleveland OH
• Columbus OH
• Toledo OH
• Oklahoma City OK
• Tulsa OK
• Beaverton OR
• Portland OR
• Abington PA
• Harrisburg PA
• Norristown PA
• Philadelphia PA
• Pittsburgh PA
• Providence RI
• Charleston SC
• Columbia SC
• Greenville SC
• Pierre SD
• Memphis TN
• Nashville TN
• Austin TX
• Brownsville TX
• Corpus Christi TX
• El Paso TX
• Fort Worth TX
• Galveston TX
• Houston TX
• Laredo TX
• Longview TX
• Lubbock TX
• San Antonio TX
• Salt Lake City UT
• Richmond VA
• Everett WA
• Seattle WA
• Tacoma WA
• Green Bay WI
• Madison WI
• Milwaukee WI
• Cheyenne WY
• Portland ME

Dallas and Washington DC are missing.

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[Shack95 2,658]

They said they have 460 photogrammetric cities. On the list in Earth View there are only 228. Where are the rest? Strangely, Hamburg and Marseille are photogrammetric but not on the list in Earth View (I could swear they were there last time I checked).  

[Claviateur 789]

I paused the video of Oct 10 at key moments and observed the procedural scenery. Yes, it has the quality of what one can excpect from OrbX but I think, if used offline, probably there won't be orthphoto (Bing aerial) but rather procedural ground textures (just guessing).

Also, for procedural areas, I noticed that the human made infrasrtucture is generated most probably using a technique similar to what the Facades are in X-Plane.

However, as far as I could see, the "facades" type of 3D infrastructure in MSFS video, look waaaay more detailed and refined than the plain 3D facades of XP.

For those who do not know what Facades are in XP, they are simple extruded 3D shapes from Open Street Maps (OSM) footprints using the attached tags if any (type of building, height etc) and with a repetitive texture wrapped all around to render windows and doors and a flat repetitive roof texture as well... 

Now 3rd party global procedural scenery for XP use this method (like SimHeaven X-Europe).

Again, in MSFS video, if the used technique is similar, they look way more detailed...

Now I think in the case of MSFS as well, to generate such extruded infrastructure, footprints shapes are required usually. And speaking of footprints, it could be that MS is using its own footprint data generated, yet again, from Azure AI to create this procedural world.

In fact, I heard that MS released a couple of years ago, a huge database of footprints for the US and Canada.

And unlike OSM footprint data, where contributors trace every footprint by hand over aerial imagery (as a reference) for their favorite city, MS used its AI to detect in aerial photography the shapes of the infrastructures and it gave a very accurate result.

This is very fascinating indeed...

So if my observations are correct as for the used technique for the procedural autogen, I suppose they generated footprints for other places on the planet than US and Canada and used these to create the 3D infrastructure...

Again, I am just guessing from observing the videos and screenshots...

Links to MS footprints:

MS US footprints

MS Canada footprints

Edited October 11, 2019 by Claviateur

[bonchie 2,305]

10 minutes ago, Claviateur said:

I paused the video of Oct 10 at key moments and observed the procedural scenery. Yes, it has the quality of what one can excpect from OrbX but I think, if used offline, probably there won't be orthphoto (Bing aerial) but rather procedural ground textures (just guessing).

Also, for procedural areas, I noticed that the human made infrasrtucture is generated most probably using a technique similar to what the Facades are in X-Plane.

However, as far as I could see, the "facades" type of 3D infrastructure in MSFS video, look waaaay more detailed and refined than the plain 3D facades of XP.

Most of what you are getting at is correct. In offline mode, they are using procedural textures instead of orthos and the color data is coming from the AI's read of the original satellite imagery. That's the main difference between online and offline mode. All the building type/location and vector data (which obviously can be stored locally) is still there.

It's not like X-Plane at all in regards to their "plausible world." MSFS isn't just dropping an industrial area randomly or generic neighborhood blocks like default X-Plane does. Even in offline mode, the buildings are going in their exact spots just like if it was online mode with orthos. So it's more like Ortho4XP with OSM overlays in X-Plane but without the ortho underneath.

But, as you say, it's not using a data source as limited as OSM so it's far more powerful and a better presentation that Ortho4XP. The AI has created it's own, much more complete data set.

You noted how much more detailed structures are than X-plane. They commented on this. It's procedural as well. That's why you see TV sets shining through windows, lights on inside houses, garage doors, cars in driveways, etc. It's all procedurally done.

Edited October 11, 2019 by bonchie

[Claviateur 789]

24 minutes ago, bonchie said:

It's not like X-Plane at all in regards to their "plausible world." MSFS isn't just dropping an industrial area randomly or generic neighborhood blocks like default X-Plane does. Even in offline mode, the buildings are going in their exact spots just like if it was online mode with orthos. So it's more like Ortho4XP with OSM overlays in X-Plane but without the ortho underneath.

Well I am not mentioning the default XP autogen (plausible) that uses pre-made fixed shaped houses, buildings and other infrastructure and that are part of a library to be placed anywhere. These are random indeed.

Yes, what I was talking about is the old (Type 1 ) facades techniques in XP that as you said, 3rd party tools likes World2Xplane or Ortho4XP use to generate overlays. In this case, the footprints are transformed into plain infrastructure but with the exact shape of what we see on aerial image and at the right spot.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Claviateur

[bonchie 2,305]

41 minutes ago, Claviateur said:

Well I am not mentioning the default XP autogen (plausible) that uses pre-made fixed shaped houses, buildings and other infrastructure and that are part of a library to be placed anywhere. These are random indeed.

Yes, what I was talking about is the old (Type 1 ) facades techniques in XP that as you said, 3rd party tools likes World2Xplane or Ortho4XP use to generate overlays. In this case, the footprints are transformed into plain infrastructure but with the exact shape of what we see on aerial image and at the right spot.

The main difference is the data source and detail. XP can generate overlays, but they rely on highly incomplete and often sparse OSM data entered by hand, as you said earlier. 

The ability to actually scan orthos and automatically compile data to produce overlays accurately is magnitudes more powerful. That's what I'm excited for. Plus the procedural detail on the buildings making them look way better of course. 

Edited October 11, 2019 by bonchie

[Claviateur 789]

15 minutes ago, bonchie said:

The main difference is the data source and detail. XP can generate overlays, but they rely on highly incomplete and often sparse OSM data entered by hand, as you said earlier. 

The ability to actually scan orthos and automatically compile data to produce overlays accurately is magnitudes more powerful. That's what I'm excited for. Plus the procedural detail on the buildings making them look way better of course. 

For sure... The MS Azure AI that generated the footprints I mentioned in my previous post (with links) show the impressive data that can be automatically extracted from Bing's aerial material using such an advanced process...

However, companies like LR have no choice but to use the OSM... 

[Mucker 93]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 6:26 AM, Shack95 said:

USA:

Dallas and Washington DC are missing.

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That is a pretty random and inconclusive list.

I wonder how much influence MFS team can have on future projects as surely they would want to prioritise some cities over others, especially capital cities?

US and Germany are reasonably represented with notable omissions but the UK doesn't even have London or any major city, just a couple of big ports.

The amount of photogrammatic cities and their coverage on release could be quite important if the difference in quality of scenery is a noticeable as seems.  

Edited October 14, 2019 by n4gix
Removed rediculously long quote!

[ca_metal 2,015]

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 10:50 AM, Mucker said:

The amount of photogrammatic cities and their coverage on release could be quite important if the difference in quality of scenery is a noticeable as seems.  

I wouldn't expect more cities being added until release (they can be added, I have no info on that) and I don't think the Bing guys would be influenced by the development of the simulator, they probably have their own roadmap/timeline to follow.

Edited October 14, 2019 by n4gix
REMOVED EXCESSIVE QUOTE!!! Please stop quoting the entire post you are replying to!