Emb-120 Version 1.1 Bug/snag list

[toucanair 41]

Hi all, 

 

I'm posting this not to trash the Braz, on the contrary, it's actually quite good, I particularly like the night lighting options, both internally and externally. Carenado have really stepped up their game in this department,

 

This is really to compare notes with other end users, to see comparisons with others to see what's happening with each individual installation and whether they are having the same issues.

 

For Clarity I'm running P3D version 4.5 without hot fix 2 applied.

 

I have flown this type IRL some years ago, though I "file Dumped" a lot of the numbers. after flying bigger faster stuff.

 

So Here's the stuff I've found so far :

• Torque - I cannot get any more than 90% on Take off at sea level, this is not correct you can over torque the brasilia by more than 120% , sure you'll cook the engines , but as with Whamil77's mods it can be programmed in the gauges. I hope Carenado or Bill (or anybody!) can rectify this.
• T6 Temp - The best I could get on an ISA Day at sea level was around 748 degrees, there are a various limits - Start, MCT, etc , but can definitely be exceeded during take off and climb an therefore cook the hot section of the engine. It definitely needs to be addressed and implemented as well. at least reflect the higher numbers in the gauges even if no consequence of a cooked engine for the take off phase and climbing to the higher flight levels 
• APU - Fuel low pressure light amber warning stays illuminated after start. It should be off and light out.
• APU- it's seems to be a dummy switch. The battery will still draw power and go flat if left long enough leaving you a cold dark and dead aircraft. I would have the thought a work around for this would be to edit the CFG and make it a 3 engined machine with no propulsion, just a generator oversimplifying, that's all it really is. the only work around so far is using FSUIPC and checking batteries to infinite, so much for consequences though.
• EEC- this one is fine as none of the EEC switches on the overhead panel on aircraft I flew worked either. they were all inop and left in the manual position.
• Propellers - During start I'm noticing this issue and wonder if It's happening to other users as well. During manual start i.e not using the Shift-7 auto start panel, I"m finding during the start up procedure that on moving condition levers out of the feather detent the propellers are instantly spinning as a high speed disc (prop blur) in external view and internal view, However, if I use the Auto-start menu, they start to spool up nice and slowly at a linear rate as in the real world. During engine shut  down (pulling the condition levers into the feather position) they now spool down in a more realistic fashion. Of note in version 1.0 they would instantaneously stop, so at least Carenado have fixed that part of the sequence. 
• Night lighting - It seems the Flood lighting under the glareshield seems to be tied in with the taxi light. as in, from VC view If  I turn off the instrument panel flood light switch, the dynamic light emanating from the the taxi light on to the airport ramp/taxiway/runway extinguishes also.
• VC artifacts-  when viewing from about row 10 and rearwards internal view.  shows the normal nacelle flap, but also what looks like an image of a rendered part of the nacelle flap in the extended position with a short artifact line extending out from it about half a meter long, this is while the flaps are retracted in the zero position. 

 

Well what I've found so far, without going into subsystems too far, electrical  prop governor tests etc. The Brasilia is a pretty rugged machine, originally built to operate independently, from remote unprepared airports and has a lot redundancy built in, like five different generators from memory, making it a rather complex turbine for it's class. the it reminds me of an old british engineered Jag XJ.

Feel free to add any bugs you may have found or comparisons, to see if these are valid and consistent issues amongst users and then maybe submitted as a support ticket to Carenado.

 

Cheers 

T

  

[FDEdev 955]

37 minutes ago, toucanair said:

1. Torque - I cannot get any more than 90% on Take off at sea level, this is not correct you can over torque the brasilia by more than 120% , sure you'll cook the engines.

2. T6 Temp - The best I could get on an ISA Day at sea level was around 748 degrees, there are a various limits - Start, MCT, etc , but can definitely be exceeded during take off and climb an therefore cook the hot section of the engine. 

3. Propellers I"m finding during the start up procedure that on moving condition levers out of the feather detent the propellers are instantly spinning as a high speed disc (prop blur) in external view and internal view, However, if I use the Auto-start menu, they start to spool up nice and slowly at a linear rate as in the real world. During engine shut  down (pulling the condition levers into the feather position) they now spool down in a more realistic fashion. 

1. Easy FDE fix.  It should be possible to include engine failure due to overtorque as well.

2. Have to re-check. AFAIR the problem is that in FSX/P3D OAT has a way too high effect on ITT/EGT. If you depart e.g. at 40°C you will exceed the temperature even at the correct torque setting.

3. Haven't installed 1.1. Do the props actually feather now? In 1.0 engine start/shut down with feathered props was impossible. Looking the at tooltips you can move the props only to 0% but not into feather. 

4. Can you confirm that the required torque on final with flaps 25 and 45 is way too high?

Edited October 15, 2019 by FDEdev

[Nickbe 401]

About EEC, from "Training manual":

Quote

"The EEC uses the power rating selector on the overhead EEC panel to program the EEC control function. The power rating selector has the following positions:

• MAN (EEC off)—Selects the manual, HMU only, mode.

• TO/CL/CR (EEC on)—Selects the automatic, control functions, mode.

The EEC operates the same in each position. Originally, the EEC system was designed to operate takeoff, climb, and cruise maximum torque indicator bugs. As these functions have not yet received regulatory approval, the torque indicator bugs are inactive."

 

2 hours ago, toucanair said:

So Here's the stuff I've found so far :

+ bug (Hydraulics)

Without turning on the electric pumps, there is no pressure, but after they are turned off, it keeps and does not fall. And in automatic mode, the electric pumps do not turn off when the pressure is more than 3000 psi.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Nickbe

[toucanair 41]

7 hours ago, FDEdev said:

1. Easy FDE fix.  It should be possible to include engine failure due to overtorque as well.

2. Have to re-check. AFAIR the problem is that in FSX/P3D OAT has a way too high effect on ITT/EGT. If you depart e.g. at 40°C you will exceed the temperature even at the correct torque setting.

3. Haven't installed 1.1. Do the props actually feather now? In 1.0 engine start/shut down with feathered props was impossible. Looking the at tooltips you can move the props only to 0% but not into feather. 

4. Can you confirm that the required torque on final with flaps 25 and 45 is way too high?

Edited 7 hours ago by FDEdev

@FDEdev 

1. I wonder, Has anyone put this to Carenado as a support ticket. do think you might be able to edit this perhaps?.

2. Yes I'm Sure P3D/FSX completely borked it or at least didn't have enough data points during development? In saying that though, Whamil77 did do some brilliant work arounds with his gauge mods "temping out vs Torquing out" in Hot /High environmental conditions that did seem very convincing. speaking of which, I hope he drops by and reads this.

3. Yes, Version 1.1 now has click spots to feather below the condition levers now. it's also configurable via the Prop pitch axis if one has a set of throttles or an axis assigned to it..... I'm finding visually though, that when I introduce fuel by moving the levers out of feather. The props are just instantly Spinning as a prop blur, not spinning up normally, the sound is correct, just not the visuals... If I use auto-start panel however.. they will spin up visually like they would in real life.

4. It's been a long time, so cannot really remember, I did have a little pocket book of magic numbers from all the types I've flown.

but it went missing after multiple moves/separation and hanging up my GA spurs. I really wish I still had it TBH., it had lots of good gouge in it and a lot of quick reference stuff, 

The numbers sound roughly right. I might have to ask around a few buddies that used to fly her and get back to you on that one.

T

[FDEdev 955]

1. I will do the FDE changes to allow overtorque and if Carenado is going to release another patch could easily include again an overtorque/overtemp engine failure 🙂

2. The T6 issue is an FSX/P3D issue and can't be corrected if you are staying within the original SDK capabilities.

4. There's a single pirep (see the condition lever thread) which says that the real EMB120 between 23-24000lbs needs 15-19% torque on final with flaps 25, the 'real' sim 20-25% and the Carenado version has been reported to require 30-35%.  I'll do my own tests today. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by FDEdev

[Goldstar Textures 85]

Also operation of the battery switch under the glareshield turns on the backup AI light but removes the caging knob..?

[FDEdev 955]

On 10/15/2019 at 9:45 AM, toucanair said:

• Torque - I cannot get any more than 90% on Take off at sea level, this is not correct you can over torque the brasilia by more than 120% , 

Btw, shouldn't max T/O be 100% at SL and ISA?

[toucanair 41]

11 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

Btw, shouldn't max T/O be 100% at SL and ISA?

 

Yes, But NO, It may be a listed or placarded limitation, but you can still push the power levers way past that limit, there's no physical linkage to stop you from doing that. 

Think of turbines as little like turbochargers, except turbos have a wastegate, Turbines don't. some fixed shaft turbines might have a selectable limiter system, Pratt & Whitney do not. As you climb to altitude the air thins out and you need more power and subsequently Torque decreases, so at a high altitude you could theoretically push the levers all the way to the wall and still not get up to 100% torque, but on the ground you can go way past that number, It's all about having reserve power at sea level say, to get you all the way up to the flight levels.

On climbout depending on the prevalent ambient weather conditions on the day, one of two things will happen you either going to hit you torque limit or, you are going to hit your Temp/ ITT/ T6 limit. whichever is the most limiting on that day. It is incumbent on the pilot in Command not to exceed that limit. On a hot day for example you could very well hit you temp limit first. 

That's why there are consequences if you don't monitor your torque or temp gauges. the reserve power is there, there are time limits as well for how long you can exceed certain limits too, for emergencies say, but once your past that, And you Can! you're effectively a test pilot and you're on your own.. and can cook those engines internally leading to internal engine fires, inflight shut-downs melting the internal power turbines etc. In short it's up to you to baby those very expensive engines. I think too this is where Caranado might be getting it all wrong

I hope that makes a little more sense.

T

 

  

[toucanair 41]

...and don't get me started on the Brasilia's propeller systems. if you don't know what you are doing and don't look after them. the Braz Will bite you hard and kill you, google Emb-120 prop overspeeds, there are plenty of Brasilia sized craters around the world, they are a fairly complex system, and crews have paid a heavy price for not understanding that system, that ran out of luck, options and altitude all at the same time. other than that, she is a hard working hot rod of a beast 🙂

T

[FDEdev 955]

1 hour ago, toucanair said:

 

Yes, But NO, It may be a listed or placarded limitation, but you can still push the power levers way past that limit, there's no physical linkage to stop you from doing that. 

Think of turbines as little like turbochargers, except turbos have a wastegate, Turbines don't. some fixed shaft turbines might have a selectable limiter system, Pratt & Whitney do not. 

I was just wondering why the Carenado EMB stops at 90% at max power instead of 100%.   If the EEC would be functional it should limit the torque at 100% I assume.

In one of the companies I flew for, a few idiots usually pushed the poor PT-6s way beyond their limits for hours on the Dash7, but nevertheless they almost never failed.

On one occasion the planetary gear failed....lucky guys that this didn't happen on a 2-engined turboprop like the EMB120!   

Edited October 16, 2019 by FDEdev

[toucanair 41]

13 hours ago, FDEdev said:

I was just wondering why the Carenado EMB stops at 90% at max power instead of 100%.   If the EEC would be functional it should limit the torque at 100% I assume.

Flight safety Manual Extract - The EEC operates the same in each position.
Originally, the EEC system was designed to operate
takeoff, climb, and cruise maximum torque
indicator bugs. As these functions have not yet
received regulatory approval, the torque indicator
bugs are inactive..... and they were never implemented

 

extract from manual -

Fixed Torque Climb—In most aircraft to maintain
the same power output during the climb, the crew
must continuously move the power levers forward.
In this aircraft, the EEC fixed-torque climb feature
maintains the selected torque during the climb by
increasing fuel flow to the engine. As a result, the
T6 temperature increases and small, occasional
power lever reductions are necessary to keep the T6
temperature within climb limits.

 

TORQUE INDICATOR

INCORPORATES A BUG, WHICH RECEIVES SIGNAL
FROM EEC
GREEN ARC: 0 TO 100%
YELLOW ARC: 100 TO 110%
RED RADIAL: 110%

NOTE:
TORQUE BUGS ARE NOT ACTIVATED

 

Max torque limit: 

Normal take off is -100% 

Take Off limit in Emergencies e.g (EFATO GPWS escape etc) - 110% for 5 minutes

Transient limit exceedance - 120% for up to 20 seconds

[toucanair 41]

16 hours ago, FDEdev said:

I was just wondering why the Carenado EMB stops at 90% at max power

.... To be honest I'm not sure exactly where they got that number from.

The Fundamental thing one has to remember is that Carenado produce visually stunning Aircraft....and that's where the relationship ends...

there maybe some various tricks to make it look like it's doing something else engine or system wise, but that's it.... it is in this case the old default FS9/FSX King Air wearing in this case an EMB-120 Brasilia's clothing.

 

The only thing heavily tweaked is the Air File and CFG, not the various Prop, Electrical, Hydraulic or Powerplant systems.

I can only presume, from the history of Carenado and in fact, Aces studio when you think of it, is what they have to work with is essentially a Dumbed down version of a Turbo-Prop for the masses,... I think where they started to get it all wrong, is Carenado started out with simple Cessna trainers which were pretty good actually and then got in a little over their heads and moved onto more complex twins and turbine realm. They market the "Tested by real pilots" line, but what kind of pilots are we talking here, John Doh, that flies his C-172 fixed pitch prop on the weekend, what real pilots are we talking about!... It certainly seems to be. 

The other issue too is, as they have often stated in various interviews, is that they work within the FSX matrix, which, by enlarge is pretty limiting.

Aces studio,(because you can wrap this gaming engine into anything you like really, P3D etc) and in fact Carenado have often failed to grasp the basic concept of even a constant speed prop on any given GA aircraft, in that it maintains a constant speed. you can vary the power all you want, but the prop will maintain that speed, read also as RPM, so when you reduce power in the real world. the only sound you hear apart from reducing in decibels maybe, But Not  that deepening pitch sound you hear... that only happens when you reduce the SPEED (RPM) of the propellor... with carenado however, nearly all of their prop driven aircraft make this fundamental mistake with the "pitch" sound changing as soon as the sim user reduces power and that's just plainly incorrect... The Only way it ever usually gets rectified - are by some very skilled modders or some aftermarket payware sound files.

I guess the point is don't make the mistake of taking Carenado's engine limits as gospel!,

As I don't think they fully understand those principles either... or they don't want to!... I surmise, that they see these various engine limits as absolutes, yeah sure a rated pilot shouldn't exceed those limits, but that doesn't mean He/She can't, Hence all the training, hence all the consequences if complex aircraft are mishandled and the injury and deaths in the real world that follow.

I think this is what draws a lot of people into this community, excluding maybe the painters and AI watchers, it's learning the skill of operating these machines correctly and of the consequences if they don't. 

the real issue possibly, is that We are all consumers, we all fall for the instant gratification of that shiny new penny/toy, we all like pretty things.. we play with, to show it off... then throw it in the virtual attic to gather dust with all the other shiny things we all bought just months ago, we pander to Carenado teasing us with yet another shiny thing through clever marketing and stunning visuals of a default King Air, Lear wrapped in X airplanes clothing.

 

Just some more depth to each product would be great, the challenge of learning something and taking the time to master it seems to me, a little more rewarding.

 

At any rate, It looks like version 1.2 has now been released in the last 24 hours, so will see what this iteration brings.

 

Cheers 

T

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by toucanair

[FDEdev 955]

1 hour ago, toucanair said:

.... it is in this case the old default FS9/FSX King Air wearing in this case an EMB-120 Brasilia's clothing.The only thing heavily tweaked is the Air File and CFG, not the various Prop, Electrical, Hydraulic or Powerplant systems.

Apparently you don't know much about FDE design but I can assure you that your assumption about the EMB120 being the default King Air in new clothing is completely wrong.

Don't understand your weird statement about 'the only thing heavily tweaked is the air file and cfg' since these are the two files which are responsible for the FDE.

If you would have at least looked at the prop and/or powerplant design you would have noticed that it has absolutely nothing in common with the default King Air.

Concerning limitations and consequences; There are of course Carenado turboprops where exeeding the maximum torque for prolonged time results in an engine failure. 

Over and out.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by FDEdev