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mpo910

Most wanted in P3D V....

POLL: Most wanted in P3D V"X"  

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  1. 1. If you could choose just 1 topic from the list below which you wanted to be the first "updated" in P3D, which one would that be?

    • Atmospheric behaviour (comparable to MSFS 2020 seen footage). Incl. Sky textures, Sun, moon, Light, Shadows, Clouds, Scattering, Fog, Rain, Snow, etc.
      44
    • Updated Scenery (comparable to MSFS 2020 or even "just" Ortho4XP output). incl. Landclass, Mesh, Landmarks, Accurate Buildings, Roads, Railways, Lightning (Road and Buildings)
      71
    • Flight dynamic behaviour
      45
    • Updated Water to more realistic water incl. waves, colours, scattering, depth, etc.
      3
    • Nothing from above interests me, I want somwething else....(which would at this moment only be possible to wright in some posts below)
      24


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They have Sascha Norman (+ team) working on South and the rest of GB now. I think Sascha is one of the betters coders in flightsim land. It's no guarantee, but gives me some hope they will not only essentially improve performance but also get rid of some visual annoyances like the green roads which the XP version doesn't have either.

Kind regards, Michael

Edit: Just saw your post Christopher: For some reason South P3D indeed looks worse overall than the XP counterpart, and that's not because "XP scenery is better than P3D" (there are enough counterexamples) but because it was a hasty and poor port (and bad beta test).

Edited by pmb

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On 10/17/2019 at 8:13 PM, Buffy Foster said:

Building in better multicore support has to happen for all those other things to happen, so that's what I want.

Same for me.

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Rob I would be interested to see the video you are referencing.

I do agree that all cores are now being used and big strides have been made in v4. However as you know turning off Hyper Threading produces a big jump in performance (for me anyway) and my guess is this because core parts of the render pipeline are single threaded and therefore single core CPU bound. Maximum FPS is directly linked to our Core 0 performance for many scenarios.

If I could somehow double my 9900k cores to 16 I wouldnt see a big FPS increase or be able to run TE GB over London with shadows! Perhaps I would be able to run more traffic, more weather etc but the render engine is heavily bottle necked on Core 0 for some tasks.

An example is the dawn dusk performance drop with cloud shadows. Sat at LGW at midday 30FPS locked CPU at 30% (core 0 much higher) GFX card at 50% then move time to 7pm and FPS will drop to 15fps or sometimes even 5fps. The CPU and GFX card are not fully loaded.

I think a modern game render engine should be able to target a framerate and adapt LOD or graphics settings to hit it rather than cause these massive swings in framerate in different scenarios. 

 

 

Edited by DellyPilot
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19 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I love ORBX, but Oregon HD for XP even after updates looks of low quality.  I think they’ve rushed a few projects out there door recently due to MSFS surprise ... perhaps to provide a buffer the expected drop in sales. 

As far as Multi-core, what are the expectations here?  P3D is making excellent use of multiple CPUs.  I’ve demonstrated that in many videos.

True regarding both points.

However, with regards to multi-core, I think people want to see some more of the workload which impacts on FPS shared out onto other cores.
Having Core 0 do all of the processing for (IIRC) the user aircraft, weather, autogen, terrain modelling, AI, shadows, etc. which is highly limiting.

The trailers for MSFS show that it is possible to use a CPU at the upper end of the mid-performance bracket, ramp up the settings and obtain a much smoother experience* than in P3D.
(*Of course, caveats apply on how limited the comparison can be with an incomplete sim that's missing core elements).


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22 minutes ago, F737NG said:

True regarding both points.

However, with regards to multi-core, I think people want to see some more of the workload which impacts on FPS shared out onto other cores.
Having Core 0 do all of the processing for (IIRC) the user aircraft, weather, autogen, terrain modelling, AI, shadows, etc. which is highly limiting.

The trailers for MSFS show that it is possible to use a CPU at the upper end of the mid-performance bracket, ramp up the settings and obtain a much smoother experience* than in P3D.
(*Of course, caveats apply on how limited the comparison can be with an incomplete sim that's missing core elements).

Agreed, I did a quick rough and ready video from my phone here to demonstrate, in a lot of situations I get big swings and stutters like this. Core 0 is maxed out.

 

 

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Hardware: i9 9900k@ 5Ghz  |  RTX 2080 TI  |  AORUS MASTER  |  58" Panasonic TV

Software: P3Dv4.4  |  AS  |   Orbx LC/TE Southern England  |  Tomatoshade  |  737 NGX | AS A319 | PMDG 747 | TFDI 717 | MJC8 Q400

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What I would most like......... developer feedback, transparency and community interaction, all this secret society stuff is so 20th century 

yeah I know we are not the target market etc etc etc so dont bother quoting me!

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How about FSX Water? Nothing more.,.,. Just give me my FSX Water and get rid of the P3D Water.. I want the ocean to look good and real from 3000 feet... I con't care for the bobbing of the ocean riding a boat.. If I wanted that, I would look for a boat simulator. and maybe a better Night lighting? Something close to X-Plane. 

Edited by Manny

Manny

Beta tester for SIMStarter 

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Rob,

What ATC is this in the EGLL video?


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22 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

All "threads" must be managed by a "main" thread when working in a "virtual time" paradigm, hence one core will always be working harder than the rest ... this is not a coding limitation nor a design problem.  

I disagree but nice video, will try your settings, impressive your Core 0 isn't maxed, looks like reflections is where our settings differ. An engine design flaw red flag, that shouldn't affect CPU so much, perhaps memory related.

Agreed about main thread but it doesn't always need to work harder, its marshalling memory buffer read/writes. The general design is to split sim threads and render thread(s) (game logic vs draw calls, buffer writes etc), which is what LM have done well, the render pipeline all on Core 0 but sim logic, scenery load, AI etc on the others. 

But their Core 0 pipeline could be optimised and split onto other threads, this is very hard because at the heart is still a single threaded loop based on 2005 FSX code.

Extracting rendering jobs to multiple threads is hard and its why studios no longer write their own engine, instead licensing mature engines like CUDA, Unity, Frostbite, all parallelised out of the box. 

Fact is P3D bottle necks on CPU Core 0 doing rendering jobs. That's a design fail in 2019. 

As you've shown GFX memory pressure is a killer and perhaps V5 could improve this, reducing swaps etc. The fact you get your memory to clock 4000Mhz+ could be why you get far more consistent FPS, I don't get near that.

But even on your rig try the same flight at Dawn / Dusk (with those max Clouds draw distance) and FPS will die.

 


Hardware: i9 9900k@ 5Ghz  |  RTX 2080 TI  |  AORUS MASTER  |  58" Panasonic TV

Software: P3Dv4.4  |  AS  |   Orbx LC/TE Southern England  |  Tomatoshade  |  737 NGX | AS A319 | PMDG 747 | TFDI 717 | MJC8 Q400

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Well, I tried that exercise on my modest machine (at EGLL as I don't have a paid Gatwick) and it remained at my locked 25 fps in mist and rain conditions.


Intel i7 6700K @4.3. 32gb Gskill 3200 RAM. Z170x Gigabyte m/b. 28" LG HD monitor. Win 10 Home. 500g Samsung 960 as Windows home. 1 Gb Mushkin SSD for P3D. GTX 1080 8gb.

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5 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I guess we disagree ... threads have to be instantiated and that which instantiates much manager, hence C++ thread manager class.

Dawn/Dusk doesn't impact my FPS, that will only happen if you either run out of VRAM or you're using some additional shadow tweaks via manual changes to the prepar3d.cfg.

The easiest way to keep one's CPU from being pegged out is to reduce the LOD Radius.

Cheers, Rob.

Hmmmmm, Is there any reason why reducing LOD to minimum or maximum has no effect on my FPS at all with an i7 6700 @4.6 w a 1080 card?


Chris Camp

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On 10/18/2019 at 1:04 AM, Mace said:

My P3D doesn't do that, for sure!  After a long tiring flight, sometimes I /wish/ I could line it up and forget it.  Usually my aircraft is moving around from turbulence and bumps, unless I get some unusually calm air.   I can even do my approach in Canada in the winter, and it looks like Canada in the winter.  🙂

Have you ever seen how a real pilot is working the yoke on the landing?

Maybe I have another P3D as you guys, but most of my approaches are pretty smooth and compared to XP a piece of cake.

 

Oh, and adding a utility that "shakes my head" will not change this.

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16 minutes ago, swiesma said:

Have you ever seen how a real pilot is working the yoke on the landing?

Like quite a few here, I am a RW pilot, so not only have I seen, I've done.  Using a good wx program and well-done aircraft, I never "fly on rails" in P3D, and in difficult conditions things can get downright heart-thumping.  A good example - a week or so ago I flew the VOR/GPS-B approach into rwy 31 at KPSP in the Milviz 310 redux.  It was a breezy day, and the turbulence I fought all the way down to the runway had me literally breaking out in sweat.

That said, there are other elements of the flight and engine models I would also like to see improved.  As noted in these forums many times by me and others, P3D's piston and turbo-prop models are badly, embarrassingly broken.  This is base-level stuff to my mind and desperately needs fixing.

Scott

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4 hours ago, swiesma said:

Have you ever seen how a real pilot is working the yoke on the landing?

Maybe I have another P3D as you guys, but most of my approaches are pretty smooth and compared to XP a piece of cake.

 

Oh, and adding a utility that "shakes my head" will not change this.

You must be flying a different P3Dv4.x, because...what tttocs said, above.

Flying on rails is a thing of the past.


Rhett

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On 10/16/2019 at 12:09 PM, Pete Dowson said:

For three "windows" via Wideview you need THREE high performance PCs each running licenced copies of P3D and most of your other addons (weather, traffic, scenery, airports).

Whilst each one would only display one window, so have good performance, the sheer cost and space taken by that is very offputting to say the least.  And the coordination of things like traffic and cloud positions across the three PCs is pretty much impossible, creating ugly differences especially in the blended overlaps (done to remove lines separating the three parts).

I've seen it operating on folks setups in the past (not with P3D) and decided it wasn't for me. So I delayed such a display till I could get a PC which would cope. That I now have, but I cannot have many of the settings up very high because of the performance limiting single core dependency.

Pete

 

 

I have run a WideView setup for over 15 years now........first with FSX and now with P3D......

Yes, maintaining 3 or 4 computers can be daunting and is expensive (I run a server plus 3 display clients),  but there is no better way to max performance for a multi-display setup given the fact that P3D is CPU-limited.

The issues mentioned regarding AI traffic and clouds etc. are very far in the past.  All that matches 100% perfectly across displays.

Likewise, blending across projection displays also works fine if setup properly.  However I prefer to use a "butted" projection instead of an overlap since it maximizes the density of displayed pixels on the screen.  You see only a very fine line between projected displays, and it completely avoids any overlap blurriness.

That said, what I most want is a single computer multi-display capability that at least approaches what I have now. 

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