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Ray Proudfoot

Is this piracy?

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Hi, Ray!  Have you asked this same question to the company that's involved to get their response?


Charlie Aron

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4 minutes ago, charliearon said:

Hi, Ray!  Have you asked this same question to the company that's involved to get their response?

Yes I did but I was curious about how users feel here. If it was something you really wanted but couldn’t buy it how would you feel / react?

They advised it wasn’t possible to change anything to make it available.


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17 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

They advised it wasn’t possible to change anything to make it available.

Then you live with it.


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1 minute ago, Ron Attwood said:

Then you live with it.

Or the person who wants it lives with it.


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31 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

 If it was something you really wanted but couldn’t buy it how would you feel / react?

The same way I feel about a Ferrari that I want but can't buy.  Wanting it but not being able to have it doesn't justify taking it.  The jails are full of people that can't understand that simple truth.

There are so many things we can't have in this world...when we run across one, we just need to shift focus to that which we can (or already do) have.  We don't live in a Burger King world...you don't always get to have it your way.

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1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

One question to ask. Who loses out by it being given to another person? I can’t think of anyone.

That is IMHO the wrong question. In many/most countries software piracy is illegal simply because there is a law against it. It doesn't matter if there is financial damage to anyone. Just as driving too fast is illegal too, no matter if you put lives at risk or not. The decisive point here is if you make a copy and give that away or if you give away the whole thing, so you don't have it anymore. The first one is piracy, the second one isn't (except maybe in the US...).

The question that you are asking is, would the developer of the addons sue you for damages - after you went to jail - which would happen in most countries in Europe. Depending on the severity of the offense, up to 5 years here in Germany. 

Btw Germany: last week two students were sentenced to pay a fine because they stole food out of the garbage can of a super market. Just because stealing is illegal. Most certainly nobody was set back financially by their actions.

Best regards

Edited by Lorby_SI

LORBY-SI

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I'm not going to voice my opinion, but I would like to comment on how refreshing to see it remain a 'grown-up' conversation:-)

Great food for thought here Ray (hope u well sir)

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Btw, since we had that topic in another thread too - you don't own the addon. You paid for a license to use it, and that license grants use to you alone. It is no yours to give it to someone else, but you can get away with a trade - not a copy though. Take a look at the "books of law" in your country, you should find the relevant paragraphs pretty quickly, since this is a common topic. That prevents any guesswork. 

When a software company ceases trading, that doesn't mean that intellectual property rights are suddenly lifted. Just like they aren't for movies, music or literature. There are even IP considerations for freeware. There are common timelines for a title to become "abandonware" - but in all cases, the IP owner must declare it. Usually happens after 15 - 20 years.

Best regards

Edited by Lorby_SI
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LORBY-SI

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2 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Piracy is defined as stealing a product thereby denying the seller the money they would otherwise have earned.

In my country software piracy is actually copyright infringement, just like with any other media (music, movies, literature).

The most common definition is the theft of material that is legally protected. That "theft" is defined as (knowingly) copying, selling, distributing or modifying any part of the software product. 

Google "software piracy" and pick your spot. They all pretty much agree on these basics. But the real deal are the legal regulations in your country. That should be easy to find out.

Best regards

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LORBY-SI

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37 minutes ago, w6kd said:

The same way I feel about a Ferrari that I want but can't buy. ...

Ah, but someone who owned a Ferrari could give the car to you and they would not get into trouble by doing so, assuming you took on the paperwork & thus became the new owner as far as the authorities were concerned. As long as they do not "clone" the car then everyone's OK. Your name on the "log book" (registration document in the UK, title? in the USA?) so to speak.

I realise that an analogy about vehicles changing ownership is not quite the same as software, but perhaps it should be. "The copy of FS2097 licenced to user Joe Bloggs, is now licenced to user John Smith". I suspect it is easier to prove who owns the Ferrari rather than proving that there's only the one piece of software which has changed hands...


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Where i live, if i buy it it is mine to do with whatever i please. I cannot keep it and sell it or distribute it, but i can give it if i stop using it or even resell it.

Basically if i'm not hurting the original developer in any way, it is legal, even if it breaks their NDA which is not valid above the law. NDAs here unless physically signed have no value.


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These guys tell you on their website that it is no longer available and ask that people who didn't buy it, not to download it. It would be up to the person on the other end to make that moral decision. https://realairsimulations.net/


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1 hour ago, w6kd said:

The owner of a copyright does not relinquish his rights by taking his work off the market...it's still his to license/sell--or not to--as he sees fit. 

What is a copyright?

A copyright protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. The duration of copyright protection depends on several factors.  For works created by an individual, protection lasts for the life of the author, plus 70 years. For works created anonymously, pseudonymously, and for hire, protection lasts 95 years from the date of publication or 120 years from the date of creation, whichever is shorter.

For information on copyrights, please contact the U.S. Copyright Office (a division of the Library of Congress).

That is a direct cut-and-paste from the US Patent and Trademark Office.  I did this kind of work for 6 years immediately prior to retiring.

https://www.uspto.gov/trademarks-getting-started/trademark-basics/trademark-patent-or-copyright

 
 

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9 minutes ago, Nuno Pinto said:

Basically if i'm not hurting the original developer in any way, it is legal, even if it breaks their NDA which is not valid above the law. NDAs here unless physically signed have no value

Certainly you mean the EULA?

Ah, but that is not entirely true. A criminal offense is independent from anybody getting hurt. They are illegal because there is a law that says so. You live in the EU too, and copyright laws are pretty much the same in all member countries. Thinking that the EULA is of no consequence is dangerous. Following that logic, the original sales contract doesn't have legal value either, because it hasn't been signed, so you don't own anything... The real question is, how each individual country chooses to deal with contract breaches.

What is true is, that in Europe it is legal to sell or give a software license to someone else - as long as you don't keep a copy for yourself. The licensor may try and sue you in a civil court for breaking his licensing terms, but in this special case they usually fail (IIRC like Microsoft did when they went against the practice of selling OEM license codes of Windows).

Best regards

 


LORBY-SI

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1 hour ago, Lorby_SI said:

That is IMHO the wrong question. In many/most countries software piracy is illegal simply because there is a law against it. It doesn't matter if there is financial damage to anyone. Just as driving too fast is illegal too, no matter if you put lives at risk or not. The decisive point here is if you make a copy and give that away or if you give away the whole thing, so you don't have it anymore. The first one is piracy, the second one isn't (except maybe in the US...).

The question that you are asking is, would the developer of the addons sue you for damages - after you went to jail - which would happen in most countries in Europe. Depending on the severity of the offense, up to 5 years here in Germany. 

Btw Germany: last week two students were sentenced to pay a fine because they stole food out of the garbage can of a super market. Just because stealing is illegal. Most certainly nobody was set back financially by their actions.

Best regards

Interesting points. I doubt the person who provided the software would own up or the one receiving it. The only way is if the installer can report back the product key is already in use. Would it be worth the risk to the legitimate owner? Probably not.

1 hour ago, Dougal said:

I'm not going to voice my opinion, but I would like to comment on how refreshing to see it remain a 'grown-up' conversation:-)

Great food for thought here Ray (hope u well sir)

Yes, very mature responses and a civilised conversation. I threw it out to gauge opinion. Very well thanks Dougal. 

53 minutes ago, Lorby_SI said:

Btw, since we had that topic in another thread too - you don't own the addon. You paid for a license to use it, and that license grants use to you alone. It is no yours to give it to someone else, but you can get away with a trade - not a copy though. Take a look at the "books of law" in your country, you should find the relevant paragraphs pretty quickly, since this is a common topic. That prevents any guesswork. 

When a software company ceases trading, that doesn't mean that intellectual property rights are suddenly lifted. Just like they aren't for movies, music or literature. There are even IP considerations for freeware. There are common timelines for a title to become "abandonware" - but in all cases, the IP owner must declare it. Usually happens after 15 - 20 years.

Best regards

And that’s the difference between something physical like a Ferrari (my preference would be an Aston Martin 😀) and software.

I suppose the nearest comparison would be making a tape of a friend’s CD instead of buying it ourselves. Of course none of us have done that have we? 😃  

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Ray (Cheshire, England).
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