Can MFS20 cope with supersonic flight

[royalwin 22]

Ah.  Apologize for misunderstanding.

[Mucker 93]

1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

@royalwin, you’re missing the point. I’m asking if the sim engine can handle supersonic flight. Only a developer can answer that question. In other words, can a Concorde that flew accurately in FSX / P3D fly as accurately in MFS20? It all depends on whether the program can accurately depict the various elements of supersonic flight. It is not a given. It needs explicitly stating by the team.

It is a good question but I don't see why not as other sims can. Don't they just update the the aircraft model more frequently at higher speeds? I know some models in Xplane require you to manually set them to update their state more frequently.

Austin of Xplane did a nice youtube video about supersonic flight and the sound barrier recently. Doesn't answer your question but an interesting watch.

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Mucker

[Ray Proudfoot 8,529]

@Mucker, have a look at the profile of Concorde’s wing. Probably the most complex shape ever designed for an aircraft. Certainly far more complex that the wings of a Cessna, Boeing, Airbus or even a stealth fighter.

I saw an earlier video where Microsoft described how many contact points they used on a simple GA aircraft to emulate the airflow so the aircraft would react correctly for the conditions.

Now multiply that complexity by a factor of x (I’d be guessing how much x is) and you have some idea what is involved in designing such a complex wing shape and it reacting accurately to airflow, drag, lift and force.

FS Labs achieved it in FSX and P3D but that was essentially the same underlying sim - ESP. With MFS20 it’s a totally different engine and what they need to know is would that engine allow for a supersonic aircraft to be modelled accurately.

interesting video which goes some way to explaining the complexity of drag as you approach the sound barrier, the high level of drag afterwards and also, how air needs slowing down as it enters the engine of an aircraft flying beyond Mach 1.

Some interesting facts about Concorde. Air was slowed down from 1350mph to 500mph in 11 feet using computer controlled ramps. Without them the engines would have shut down. Once Mach 1.7 was reached reheats could be turned off and Concorde was the only aircraft capable of accelerating to Mach 2 without them. That’s what gave it its 4000 mile range.

Can this new simulator engine allow all that to be accurately modelled? That is the question I’d like the developers to answer. Moving the ground scenery quickly enough is probably a lot easier problem to solve.

[FDEdev 948]

One of the reasons for Concordes ogival wing shape was the need to create the necessary vortex lift to get the approach speed down to an acceptable level.

Simulating vortex lift is one of the advantages of a table based sim and I assume that Asobo doesn't try to re-invent the wheel.

An advanced version of what we have now for FDE design would be very good IMO.

AFAIR (modified) P3D/FSX aircraft will work in the new sim and I can't imagine how this would be possible if they would switch to a totally different method of flight model simulation.

Since FS2000 already had the Concorde included, I don't see any problems in a much more advanced sim.

Slowing down of the air in the engine intake below M1 is required for all aircraft with turbofan engines but luckily the sim doesn't know that 😉

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by FDEdev

[Ray Proudfoot 8,529]

@FDEdev, you sound as though you speak with a high level of knowledge regarding aircraft modelling in FSX / P3D. I too have seen suggestions some aspects of the ESP engine would be compatible with the new sim including BGL files. If what you suggest is true then that would be welcome news as  it would mean the developers of Concorde wouldn't need to start afresh. Sight of an SDK asap would be very welcome for developers and customers.

The version of Concorde supplied in FS2000 was unexpected but the flight model was far from perfect and of course the FE panel was non existent. The conversion of FS Labs Concorde-X into a 64-bit product compatible with MFS20 would be very welcome.

[Murmur 3,883]

Devs said there's a legacy mode where ac's can use the old FSX flight model. The new flight model is completely different from the old one but we'll probably know more in the aerodynamics episode.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,529]

1 hour ago, Murmur said:

Devs said there's a legacy mode where ac's can use the old FSX flight model. The new flight model is completely different from the old one but we'll probably know more in the aerodynamics episode.

Do you have a source for that info please?

[Murmur 3,883]

30 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Do you have a source for that info please?

Here's the first found from one of the invited: https://inspire.eaa.org/2019/09/30/an-inside-look-at-microsofts-newest-flight-simulator/

( Paragraph "What About All of My Third-Party Aircraft?")

But I'm positive the devs also said it directly in one of the YT interviews or podcasts.

EDIT: straight from devs at 23:20

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Murmur

[FDEdev 948]

2 hours ago, Murmur said:

The new flight model is completely different from the old one

Any link, or in which way 'completely different'?

[ckyliu 1,743]

Well it uses 1000+ reference points and one point can influence another behind it in the air stream, vs ESP sims which are one reference point. Personally I'd hope the dynamics of any ported paid addon is redone for the new system, as it appears to allow for spins and be jostled around by minor air pockets and currents, and the flow off one control surface to impact another.

Edited October 29, 2019 by ckyliu

[Murmur 3,883]

1 hour ago, FDEdev said:

Any link, or in which way 'completely different'?

As ckyliu said. Given the description the dev gave in multiple interviews, I think it is safe to say that it has very little in common with FSX one. But we'll know more soon anyway.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,529]

@Murmur, thanks for the links. It looks very encouraging for legacy aircraft. Significant enough to bring this to the attention of FS Labs I think.

[Julkensen 47]

Ray,

The next roadmap video will focus on aerodynamics. You'll probably get your answer then. 

For the terrain loading aspect, with all the options available for the new sim I don't think it will be a problem. 

As for the legacy option I think it will come with a significant performance loss, and knowing fslabs they'll want to do this properly. I have no doubt we will see Concorde in fs20. The only unknown is when. 

[Ray Proudfoot 8,529]

@238932, I shall look out for that presentation, thanks. I agree it sounds as though compromises would be made for a legacy aircraft to work but quite honestly just having a sim that can load one shows me the underlying engine is not that far removed from earlier versions.

PS. A name would be nice. 😉

[ErichB 3,553]

1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

honestly just having a sim that can load one shows me the underlying engine is not that far removed from earlier versions

It is still an FSX core base, but obviously a very different sim.