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HyperThreading - My Take

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4 minutes ago, Rockliffe said:

Bizarre. I have the same CPU and have experienced the exact opposite following exhaustive testing.

😞

Also with HT off GSX really goes bunkers. The cars and "people" are lagging all over the place.

I also tried a lot of things, HT on/off, different AMs...

 

Best works for me: HT on, and a AM which masks out the first logical core.

Edited by swiesma
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Stefan Wiesmayer

My second hobby: BMW F87 M2 LCI

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2 hours ago, mikeymike said:

I have just switched mine off on my i9 9900k

and I must say it’ll the sim is smoother.

 

agree! I´am running my P3D with fairly high settings like dense scenery, dense autogen etc. and limited FPS to 30 and, of course HT off. My SIM is smooth as butter even on high dense scenery like AS Heathrow, Frankfurt i. ex. No stutters since i turned HT off. My other experience is that high FPS doesn´t mean "no stutters" and vice versa. If i put the FPS to unlimited my rig easily performs at 50 up to 80 FPS but don´t prevent stutters. The other way with HT off and limited FPS to 30 the FPS counter sometimes goes under 30 like 27 or so but even then absolutely no stutters. 

I highly recommend to all the thread in this forum about the new NVIDIA driver settings for imageupscaling and image shaping, because this is an interesting option to drive down the rendering workload for the CPU and push it to the GPU. 


Bernd

P3D V5 -  PC spec: Intel i9-9900 overclocked 5 GHz HT off, 32 GB RAM, GPU Nvidia RTX2080, 2xM2 SSD, Skalarki HomeCockpit and Jeehell FMGS on a dedicated Server, PF3 for ATC, MCE, GSX, EFB, AS+ASCA and OrbX

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2 hours ago, mikeymike said:

I have just switched mine off on my i9 9900k

and I must say it’ll the sim is smoother.

 

agree! I´am running my P3D with fairly high settings like dense scenery, dense autogen etc. and limited FPS to 30 and, of course HT off. My SIM is smooth as butter even on high dense scenery like AS Heathrow, Frankfurt i. ex. No stutters since i turned HT off. My other experience is that high FPS doesn´t mean "no stutters" and vice versa. If i put the FPS to unlimited my rig easily performs at 50 up to 80 FPS but don´t prevent stutters. The other way with HT off and limited FPS to 30 the FPS counter sometimes goes under 30 like 27 or so but even then absolutely no stutters. 

I highly recommend to all the thread in this forum about the new NVIDIA driver settings for imageupscaling and image shaping, because this is an interesting option to drive down the rendering workload for the CPU and push it to the GPU. 


Bernd

P3D V5 -  PC spec: Intel i9-9900 overclocked 5 GHz HT off, 32 GB RAM, GPU Nvidia RTX2080, 2xM2 SSD, Skalarki HomeCockpit and Jeehell FMGS on a dedicated Server, PF3 for ATC, MCE, GSX, EFB, AS+ASCA and OrbX

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1 hour ago, swiesma said:

😞

Also with HT off GSX really goes bunkers. The cars and "people" are lagging all over the place.

I also tried a lot of things, HT on/off, different AMs...

 

Best works for me: HT on, and a AM which masks out the first logical core.

Hi Stefan, do you run you SIM at a resolution of 4k, because your Monitor is 4k?. Beside many other components this can have a huge performance impact especially with an I7 CPU. Have in mind, that the render computations for each single frame for each single pixel needs to be done by your CPU. The P3D core engine has not really the ability to benefit from the GPU architecture as state of the art games today. The main part is done by the CPU and the GPU capabilities are mainly used for additional post processing like PBR and shading etc.

Of course the orchestration of your whole set up like which CPU, SSD or HD, RAM works best together, is one reason why we all have different observations. But i can say that after trying many other things and settings for my setup it made the difference when i got rid off from HT and overclocked the "real" cores to 5G and disable any AM because its just not needed. 

Sometimes it helps aswell to deactivate the "zero" core of the CPU via the windows taskmanager while P3D is running and activate the core after few seconds again. Because it seems that even the startup sequence of windows 10 is different on every single startup and can cause windows coretasks running in different orders which can have impact on performance for P3D, etc. etc. 

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Bernd

P3D V5 -  PC spec: Intel i9-9900 overclocked 5 GHz HT off, 32 GB RAM, GPU Nvidia RTX2080, 2xM2 SSD, Skalarki HomeCockpit and Jeehell FMGS on a dedicated Server, PF3 for ATC, MCE, GSX, EFB, AS+ASCA and OrbX

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12 hours ago, BerndB said:

Hi Stefan, do you run you SIM at a resolution of 4k, because your Monitor is 4k?. Beside many other components this can have a huge performance impact especially with an I7 CPU. Have in mind, that the render computations for each single frame for each single pixel needs to be done by your CPU. The P3D core engine has not really the ability to benefit from the GPU architecture as state of the art games today. The main part is done by the CPU and the GPU capabilities are mainly used for additional post processing like PBR and shading etc.

 

Hi Bernd , this might be interesting for me as i have an old i7-4770K running 4K inside the sim on my 4K 49" TV monitor.

I normally is running window mode so i am not sure if i can choose another resolution ?

If i choose to run full screen would i benefit for 2K resolution on my CPU ? i always thought it was the GPU who mainly had to work

Sometimes i have a hard time running 25HZ/25FPS with FSLA320 and maybe 2K could make a differens at places like KORDV2 and Flytampa KBOS for instance, EGLL Aerosoft-simwings

 

Thanks

Michael Moe

Edited by Michael Moe

Michael Moe

 

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On 11/5/2019 at 7:00 AM, AnkH said:

Although there are still people having different experience, I always get the best results out of my sim (was like that for FSX, P3Dv3 and now P3Dv4) with mimicking "HT off" by using an affinity mask entry doing this (01 01 01 01 01 01 or "1365" in my case).

Exact same case here. And all the rest of the system/apps which can make use of HT still have it available. It does seem to be true that the FSX engine doesn't like HT enabled.


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17 hours ago, swiesma said:

😞

Also with HT off GSX really goes bunkers. The cars and "people" are lagging all over the place.

Always had HT off, way smoother, no problems whatsoever with GSX. No difference with GSX with HT on or off, just the whole sim runs better.

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3 hours ago, Michael Moe said:

Hi Bernd , this might be interesting for me as i have an old i7-4770K running 4K inside the sim on my 4K 49" TV monitor.

I normally is running window mode so i am not sure if i can choose another resolution ?

If i choose to run full screen would i benefit for 2K resolution on my CPU ? i always thought it was the GPU who mainly had to work

Sometimes i have a hard time running 25HZ/25FPS with FSLA320 and maybe 2K could make a differens at places like KORDV2 and Flytampa KBOS for instance, EGLL Aerosoft-simwings

 

Thanks

Michael Moe

Hi Mich, i´ve tested just yesterday evening the upscaling with the latest NVIDIA driver. I´ve set the resolution in P3D down to 1024 x 768 and let the GPU upscale the image to 1920 x 1080 and it seems to have an impact on performance. The FPS are not increased but the visual impression seems much smoother. My Sim was running absolutely without stutters allready, even at highdense scenery like Heathrow or Frankfurt. But there was a kind of microstutters left which where noticeable in case when scenery objects like Airportbuses or Vans where passing in front of my cockpitview. This little objectstutters are even gone now. In simple words this can be, because now the CPU just needs to compute the colorset "only" for 786432 different pixels for each single frame instead of 2.000.000 pixels. The difference for the pixel per frame computation is now shifted to the GPU via the upscaling. Together with the setting for image sharpening the overall visual apearence of my SIM looks crisp and clear like my 4k TV. Especially the deepfield sharpness is noticeable and distant objects can be seen much clearer.

Generally speaking my experience is, that a high value of FPS doesn´t guarantee "no stutters" and vice versa. I had tested settings in the past  where my Rig easily came up to 80 - 90 FPS but i had horrible stutters. Actually i have limited the FPS down to 30 and everything is smooth as silk. You need to have in mind, that the relationship between how computer generated images are processed and how our brains can interpret them as a movement is very complex and variable. Usually the 24 FPS as used by movies gives our brain the "illusion" of a smooth moving picture. But with computer images this is a different story because every single colorpixel is just live generated for every single frame and though it´s much more difficult to fool our brain for illusion. I. ex. sometimes you could see the effect only on live performed CGI that the pictureportion in the forefront seems smooth but more distant portions are stutter if you concentrate you eyes on them. This is something doesn´t happen in Movies because the whole frame is just one picture showed 24 times a second to your brain.

Understanding how our brains fooled to notice movement which is not realy there should make it clear that it never can be just a matter of FPS for live CGI to get a smooth experience. 


Bernd

P3D V5 -  PC spec: Intel i9-9900 overclocked 5 GHz HT off, 32 GB RAM, GPU Nvidia RTX2080, 2xM2 SSD, Skalarki HomeCockpit and Jeehell FMGS on a dedicated Server, PF3 for ATC, MCE, GSX, EFB, AS+ASCA and OrbX

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3 hours ago, Nuno Pinto said:

Exact same case here. And all the rest of the system/apps which can make use of HT still have it available. It does seem to be true that the FSX engine doesn't like HT enabled.

The good news is, that there are even so many other up-to-date, expensive and so called professional applications exist which should have huge benefit from HT but in fact they have not. Just because their developers don´t know or understand how HT needs to be implemented in the correct way, or they are just too lazy to mind about it because their product just sells even without real HT ability.

And the customer can´t really miss something he never had, right?!😉

 


Bernd

P3D V5 -  PC spec: Intel i9-9900 overclocked 5 GHz HT off, 32 GB RAM, GPU Nvidia RTX2080, 2xM2 SSD, Skalarki HomeCockpit and Jeehell FMGS on a dedicated Server, PF3 for ATC, MCE, GSX, EFB, AS+ASCA and OrbX

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Reading Nvidia's guide it says up-scaling will not work on windowed or border-less windows applications.

Where does this leave P3D?

Chris

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50 minutes ago, BerndB said:

This is something doesn´t happen in Movies because the whole frame is just one picture showed 24 times a second to your brain.

Understanding how our brains fooled to notice movement which is not realy there should make it clear that it never can be just a matter of FPS for live CGI to get a smooth experience. 

The reason our brain accepts 24FPS movies as fluid and smooth is basically because of "motion blur". Or simply because it was also recorded at 24FPS (this you probably mean by "the whole frame is showed...). That is why some games include motion blur in their option, but it is still not totally comparable, as FPS are usually not constant enough in a game (see below).

You might add the fact that in a movie, those 24FPS are totally constant and this makes it appear smooth. This is what you can also observe in games, the more constant your simulator runs, the smoother it seems even at relatively low FPS numbers. That is why all those limiting are around: perfectly constant 30FPS appear much smoother than average 45FPS with fluctuations from 25 to 65FPS.


Greetings, Chris

Intel i7-8700K@5.0GHz, 2x16GB 3200MHz CL14 RAM, Gigabyte AORUS 1080Ti, Windows 10 Home 64bit, Prepar3D 4.5

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56 minutes ago, AnkH said:

The reason our brain accepts 24FPS movies as fluid and smooth is basically because of "motion blur". Or simply because it was also recorded at 24FPS (this you probably mean by "the whole frame is showed...). That is why some games include motion blur in their option, but it is still not totally comparable, as FPS are usually not constant enough in a game (see below).

You might add the fact that in a movie, those 24FPS are totally constant and this makes it appear smooth. This is what you can also observe in games, the more constant your simulator runs, the smoother it seems even at relatively low FPS numbers. That is why all those limiting are around: perfectly constant 30FPS appear much smoother than average 45FPS with fluctuations from 25 to 65FPS.

Yeah, this is exactly in short words what i´ve tried to say. And in addition, that FPS doesn´t mandatory mean you have no stutter because there are so many other parameters of a live CGI than just the FPS. We see it all in the real world. (I mean the whole thing beside the edges of our PC-Screens) There we all have just 1 loooooong frame that we can see and by magic without stutters.😉 


Bernd

P3D V5 -  PC spec: Intel i9-9900 overclocked 5 GHz HT off, 32 GB RAM, GPU Nvidia RTX2080, 2xM2 SSD, Skalarki HomeCockpit and Jeehell FMGS on a dedicated Server, PF3 for ATC, MCE, GSX, EFB, AS+ASCA and OrbX

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1 hour ago, chrisal said:

Reading Nvidia's guide it says up-scaling will not work on windowed or border-less windows applications.

Where does this leave P3D?

Chris

For me the upscaling works in both cases windowed and full screen. It can happen that the upscaling get lost for instance if you change in P3D from window to Fullscreen mode. If this happen just reopen the Nvidia settings for upscaling whilst P3D is running and "remind" it to the settings you want. It will instantly get it right.


Bernd

P3D V5 -  PC spec: Intel i9-9900 overclocked 5 GHz HT off, 32 GB RAM, GPU Nvidia RTX2080, 2xM2 SSD, Skalarki HomeCockpit and Jeehell FMGS on a dedicated Server, PF3 for ATC, MCE, GSX, EFB, AS+ASCA and OrbX

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3 hours ago, BerndB said:

Hi Mich, i´ve tested just yesterday evening the upscaling with the latest NVIDIA driver. I´ve set the resolution in P3D down to 1024 x 768 and let the GPU upscale the image to 1920 x 1080 and it seems to have an impact on performance. The FPS are not increased but the visual impression seems much smoother. My Sim was running absolutely without stutters allready, even at highdense scenery like Heathrow or Frankfurt. But there was a kind of microstutters left which where noticeable in case when scenery objects like Airportbuses or Vans where passing in front of my cockpitview. This little objectstutters are even gone now. In simple words this can be, because now the CPU just needs to compute the colorset "only" for 786432 different pixels for each single frame instead of 2.000.000 pixels. The difference for the pixel per frame computation is now shifted to the GPU via the upscaling. Together with the setting for image sharpening the overall visual apearence of my SIM looks crisp and clear like my 4k TV. Especially the deepfield sharpness is noticeable and distant objects can be seen much clearer.

Generally speaking my experience is, that a high value of FPS doesn´t guarantee "no stutters" and vice versa. I had tested settings in the past  where my Rig easily came up to 80 - 90 FPS but i had horrible stutters. Actually i have limited the FPS down to 30 and everything is smooth as silk. You need to have in mind, that the relationship between how computer generated images are processed and how our brains can interpret them as a movement is very complex and variable. Usually the 24 FPS as used by movies gives our brain the "illusion" of a smooth moving picture. But with computer images this is a different story because every single colorpixel is just live generated for every single frame and though it´s much more difficult to fool our brain for illusion. I. ex. sometimes you could see the effect only on live performed CGI that the pictureportion in the forefront seems smooth but more distant portions are stutter if you concentrate you eyes on them. This is something doesn´t happen in Movies because the whole frame is just one picture showed 24 times a second to your brain.

Understanding how our brains fooled to notice movement which is not realy there should make it clear that it never can be just a matter of FPS for live CGI to get a smooth experience. 

Hi Bernd

What approach to windows resolution and in-game resolution for 2K in P3Dv4?

I like the 4K in Windows 10 but if i have to adjust this before running P3D so be it 🙂

 

Thanks

Michael Moe

Edited by Michael Moe

Michael Moe

 

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1 hour ago, Michael Moe said:

Hi Bernd

What approach to windows resolution and in-game resolution for 2K in P3Dv4?

I like the 4K in Windows 10 but if i have to adjust this before running P3D so be it 🙂

 

Thanks

Michael Moe

Mich you can leave the WIN10 resolution as it is at 4K. This is set in the NVidia control panel at "Display/Change resolution" and should be already set at 4K if that´s the screen resolution your monitor can provide.

You apply the sharpening in the Nvidia controlpanel on the "Program Settings" tab for P3D only and not in the "Global settings". Hit there the ticbox for GPU-Scaling if you want to upscale the image of P3D aswell. What this upscaling does is simply upscaling any resolution set in your application like P3D automatic to the resolution you have set for your screen in the "Display/Change resolution" setting. 

I. ex. change the resolution, in P3D itself via "Options\Graphic\" to what will work for you, let´s say 1024 x 768 or 1920x1080 (2K). If the General display resolution is set to 3840 x 2160 wich is 4K, the GPU then automaticly upscales the P3D image to that resolution. That´s cool, i think.😀

Don´t forget to clear the shader cache in P3D allways if you change a setting in P3D which effects graphical settings.


Bernd

P3D V5 -  PC spec: Intel i9-9900 overclocked 5 GHz HT off, 32 GB RAM, GPU Nvidia RTX2080, 2xM2 SSD, Skalarki HomeCockpit and Jeehell FMGS on a dedicated Server, PF3 for ATC, MCE, GSX, EFB, AS+ASCA and OrbX

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