P3D v4.5 performance - slowly give up

[FSXLiveries_com 1]

Hello folks,
This has been a desperate move for me to ask for help because through all these years when I used FSX and P3D, I was able to tweak the sim by myself. Well, at least in most cases googling was enough. 
This time it's however different and I didn't have a time in last couple of years to follow eventual changes so I will definitely need your help and honestly counting especially on one from @SteveW and @Rob_Ainscough as I know what knowledge about hardware and sim they both have. 

First of all, my PC spec:
Motherboard: MSI Z370 Pro Carbon AC
CPU: i5-8600K (OC wth locked 4.9Ghz) (6C/6T)
RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws V 32GB
GPU: MSI 1070Ti Armor 8GB (overclocked +183 / +293)
GPU drivers: 441.12
nVidia Inspector: 2.13
Hard drives:
1. Samsung 960 Evo 512GB (M.2 SSD):(System / Simulator Core / Heaviest 3rd party addons
2. Samsung 850 Pro 256 GB (SATA SSD): other addons & sim apps
Monitor #1: (Current)  49" Samsung CHG90 (3840x1080) 144Hz FreeSync
             #2: (Previous) 27" Iiyama 70Hz FreeSync
System: Windows 7 Build:7601 (with all updates)

It isn't the beast or the high-end rig but still for sure capable of smooth operations as it worked for last couple of years. 

Software:
P3D v4.5.13.32097
ActiveSky v.7208 (Weather engine)
REX SkyForce (Textures only)
Tomatoshade: v31 used for shaders only
ReShade
ORBX Vector/Global/OLC_EU/GES+GEN/OLC_GB/TE_NL
FreeMeshX 2.0 for Europe/Asia
Airports: tons of them, mainly for Europe / from grass airfields to intl. hubs. All compatible with P3Dv4
Aircrafts:     PMDG 73x/74x/77x
                   A2A C172
AI Traffic: UT Live
Other software: DisplayFusion (for splitting the screen in ~2:1 proportions. 

Now, I am fully aware that some addons are performance heavy, especially when rendered in the same time like FT EHAM + ORBX TE_NL so up until now I used two separate config profiles, used in various conditions. 1st for GA birds and 2nd for airliers. 
The thing is that in v4.3 and v4.4 I was able to fly with C172 over EHAM with mixed settings which you will find below in form of screenshots here: https://imgur.com/gallery/yIkP6cj
With Boeing going one or two steps down with some sliders, mainly for "Autogen Draw Distance" and " Building Density".
In both cases performance was very smooth even at dusk or dawn with overcasted sky and AI traffic at level 50%.
FPS range was respecivly 30-45FPS for GA and 30-35FPS for Boeing aircrafts. The latency was ~15-30ms. 
As for the hardware side, CPU never exceeded usage of 25% with splitted P3D between 6 cores. I used AM= entry in config file for that. GPU in worst case scenario usually fluctuated between 65-80%. 
I also used some extra tweaks in p3d.cfg but don't have it anymore, neither I can recall which entries I changed.
Please notice that all these values above I got on FT's EHAM with ORBX TE_NL. I mention it again because I always adjust settings starting with heaviest scenario. 
As I said, everything was smooth, no matter if it was in VC view or external one, neither aircraft type played a big difference.

Right now, however, I am unable to reach smooth smooth results no matter what I try to do. 
With no changes made to sceneries, sitting at EHAM at the gate or parking in C172, everything I get is 15-25FPS with latency of 50-250ms and higher. There are some spikes of FPS to 26-32FPS and latency going below 25ms but they do't last longer than a second and that's usually when I'm at the gate and there is no movement of the plane or any airport vehicles.
Please, notice that I do have turned off or lowered to minimum some of the airport and TE_NL features, for example in case of EHAM: highway traffic (off), 3D grass(off), snow effects(off), parking cars (low), apron traffic (low)
As for TE_NL or GES/GEN I also turned off some files, not crucial to addon.

I ran some tests at smaller airports like EGGP with OLC_GB, EDDN and EDDK. Everywhere the same performance problem. 
Then I moved to EPWA with Warsaw CityX from Drzewiecki Design and at this airport I saw some improvement but still slideshow when panning the camera around the cockpit, taxing or circling above the airport.

Problems started already in v4.4 while ago and not sure what could cause it. Maybe GPU drivers update? These were updated few times.
I moved (finally) to v4.5 HF2 directly from 4.4 two days ago but I see no difference. 

So, here is what I have done so far:
- P3D Update: 4.4 to 4.5 HF2 (client and content) followed by LM Guide
- GPU drivers updated several times. Last three versions installed after a full wipe of previous ones with DDU
- Tested with and without TomatoShade and ReShade
- Cleaned shader cache before each test
- Cleaned SceneryIndex multiple times
- ActiveSky (tested ON and OFF) 
- AI Traffic (tested ON and OFF)
- Rebuilt prepar3d.cfg multiple times
- Tested with C172 as well as PMDG aircrafts
- Tested with and without AffinityMask entry in cfg. 
- Tested with VSync Off and On, FPS Limiter - No Limit/30/35/40/48/60
  Sync and FPS Limiter tested on 3 different monitor refresh rates: 144/120/60Hz
- Tested with windowed and fullscreen mode. 
- Tested without and with nVidia Inspector (various combinations) 
 
That's for the start. At some point, I stopped using AM entry in config and started to use ProcessLasso. 
I nailed P3D to cores 0,2-5 [AM=61] which seems to be the best solution so far. I also moved all addon processes from first core to balance CPU usage better. As for now, I don't see CPU being bottle-necked. There are some spikes on Core0 but it doesn't happen often.
The problem is GPU usage. In past, as I said before, it never went above 80%. Right now it goes up to 100% every one or two seconds, it stays there for a second or two just to go down again to 40-65% and after a second be back at 100%. 

Two last things. 

If you look at the hardware and software specification, you will notice that there are two monitors mentioned. I did changed monitors while I was still with v4.3 and on the new one sim still worked fine. As for now the old one is not connected.
As for the software, I listed DisplayFusion. This is a powerful tool for managing displays. Right now, I use it for splitting the screen for two virtual desktops. One taking aproximitely 60-66% of screen's width. Thanks to this I can run simulator as well as many games in fullscreen mode and still have the other part of desktop visible. However, I tested my issue with both, splitted screen and standard one. I also tested with DisplayFusion completely turned off.  For testing purposes I also turned off and on all unnecessary software and services, both related and not related to sim but not crucial for system.

As have you seen, I still use Windows 7. I have plans to finally switch to "10" next month or in January and wonder if the newer one gives any improvement for P3D's performance. Is it noticable?
The only reason why I didn't switch till now is because Win7 is a word not allowed stable system and so far it has been supported by developers of multiple software. The only lack of features I start to feel right now is lack of DX12 and adaptive G-Sync which works with my monitor (or all of them, not sure) in Win10 only.

OK, no more info comes to my mind at this point so if there is anything I missed, please, let me know and I will add it. 

I will appreciate your help guys and like I said at the beginning, I count especially on Steve's and Rob's help.

Regards
Mark 

[F737MAX 5,493]

Try turning down your cloud coverage density from 'Maximum' in P3D settings to 'Low' or 'Medium'
I also limit cloud layers in ASP4 to 4 layers.

Cloud density has a huge performance penalty on my 1070 GPU.

Fingers crossed that's the cause.
 

Edited November 10, 2019 by F737NG

[Vlooi 68]

Hi Mark,

On some forums across the web there are complaints about the latest nvidia drivers, from 440 upwards, especially the 441 series. Try an older driver (436 series maybe), and see if that helps.

Regards

Marius

[BerndB 349]

If not done already, turn HT OFF in you bios and don´t use any AM.  Second thing me would do to turn down you screen resolution to FullHD (1920 x1080) to see if the GPU struggles with the 4K.

Edited November 10, 2019 by BerndB

[DellyPilot 109]

It is a pain in the neck and I cannot really see why you have such bad performance but personally I have settled on the following

• Disable Hyper Threading and overclock RAM to highest stable frequency
• Lock to 60FPS in P3D with external frame limiter to 30FPS (Riva Tuner)
• Remove all tweaks (delete Prepare3d.cfg) even Core Affinity but leave than Fiber Frame Time Fraction, for me 0.17 is a good balance

I would certainly move to Windows 10 but from my experience here are some engine considerations.. dynamic lighting and shadows both use a lot of CPU especially at Dusk dawn where the shadows get so long they break the engine.

Start tweaking with everything at minimum and no addons (Simstarter is a nice way to create a clean profile), then add things 1 by 1 and monitor GPU and CPU%. They must never be 100% (on core 0), LOD is the biggest killer.

Even on my rig I have to make very significant compromises with Level of Detail radius, Autogen density etc.

 

[paulluck 16]

He has an i5...there is no HT.

[Kilo60 660]

OP aside, I think at this point trying to squeeze that last bit of performance out of P3D is like trying to whip a dead horse to the finish line!

 

Either LM does something drastic to improve this sims performance on their end or we will all need to be running at 7ghz to be able to run smoothly with high settings and with the most popular addons...

[simbol 5,767]

2 minutes ago, Kilo60 said:

OP aside, I think at this point trying to squeeze that last bit of performance out of P3D is like trying to whip a dead horse to the finish line!

Would you quit with the dead horse comments already? Lately this is all you post. We are trying to help the user here, please go to the MS2020 forums for such discussions.

Back to topic. 

There were reports of problems with certain shaders addons. Although I don't see any of them listed on your addons I  wanted to be sure you don't have anything editing your original shaders.

Second thought is, what happens if you use only 1 monitor? I wonder if the sync vs the other could be causing an issue.

Regards,

Simbol 

[Rogen 1,086]

I have practically the same hardware (on the AMD side though - x370mb, 32 GB, Ryzen 2700x, 1070Ti, Win7 Ultimate, 3 x 1920x1080 30hz capable monitors)  and personally I don't think you'll get what you're looking for.

For starters 3840x1080 is a lot of resolution to drive with the 1070Ti (when it comes to P3D, nice monitor though), plus @ the minimum of 60 Hz means you'll not achive really smooth frames unless your sim can output a matching fps (60 fps). And I doubt with all the orbx scenery addins and complex planes you'll be able to get 60 fps anywhere but the most sparsely of populated areas or really high in the sky.

I don't know if FreeSync monitors can get down to 30 Hz but if they can I'd try that, e.g. configure a custom 30 Hz screen mode (or trial an already existing 30 Hz mode), that way the sim only has to be able to maintain 30 fps (in reality a headspace of about ~40 fps is more ideal) that with P3D vsync on will provide really smooth output.

If you cannot get the monitor down to a 30 Hz screen mode then Riva Tuner Statistics Server has a half vsync rate i.e. a 60 Hz screen mode can be set to vsync @ half to produce 30 fps, an added plus is you can then crank up the P3D settings to a better looking sim.

I manage to get pretty good smooth output with almost all P3D sliders at max or close to it as shown in the linked vids.

The one below shows P3D and Rivia Statistics Tuner Server in action (check the frame rate counter on the bottom RHS), also shows the settings and the GPU/CPU use.

Riva Tuner Statistics Server vsyncing @ half monitor 60hz for 30 fps @ L35 Big Bear airport

Personally I don't fly complex airliners but do enjoy otherwise.

I have exceptions in antimalware to avoid scanning while loading of files (P3D and addons only).

Also have FSUIPC5 with WideFSenabled=No and run a custom set of NVidia Inspector settings as well as a fairly custom prepar3d.cfg.

Finally I monitor the GPU/CPU use as either reaching 100% will kill a frame rate and with P3D it is really easy to max the GPU to 100%.

The monitoring allows feedback tuning to adjust where needed.

However sometimes to won't matter, the CPU and GPU will have plenty of headroom, but P3D will not get those frames up - seems to be the nature of the beast.

Hope to hear some better results.

Cheers

[BerndB 349]

15 hours ago, paulluck said:

He has an i5...there is no HT.

oooops….yepp! 🙄

But that´s good at least😜

Edited November 11, 2019 by BerndB

[BerndB 349]

On op of the topics by Rob, i would guess, that the 4k-resolution is at least a topic which is worth to check, especially with a i5 an 1070ti. It is a common misunderstanding that screen resolution has no performance influence. Many user think about the resolution as is an equivalent of focusing on a camera to get a sharper image but it isn´t in fact. If you think of a digi camera the resolution is comparable to the image sensor and how many pixel he really has. If you use a resolution of 3840x1080 means the image contains of 4.147.200 single pixel (or 4 MegaPixel in other words) where every single pixel caries the information of Colour grading(RGB) plus the greyscale for the contrast (from black to white). Of course there are different panels like LED, OLED, QLED actually and all have little differences how they handle this, but the physics behind it is what i said in simple words.

All these data needs to be computed and provided by the CPU/GPU for each single frame for each single pixel. Which sounds much by the simple numbers but isn´t actually for modern GPU, but it can make a difference if the system is at the limit already. And simulation like P3D push even fast CPU and GPU like mine i9 and RTX2080 easily to limits. The stuttering in CGI´s mostly come from performance peaks where just one single processor or even another component like RAM etc., hits the max just for nanosecond. We all have seen them i. ex. on approach into a highdense airports when the LOD radius comes to the max and all texture near and far are loaded etc. etc. Because of this, it´s worth to balance the system performance as perfect as possible, which means not to ignore the resolution which can be a compromise between eyecandy and smooth apearence.     

Edited November 11, 2019 by BerndB

[JasonPC 173]

I have noticed a decrease in performance in high scenery areas ever since 4.3. The subsequent patches and hot fixes have helped some, but what happens is that Core 1 just gets hammered more so than in previous versions which obviously impacts performance. The best example for me is DD KORD with ChicagoX installed. At gate C10 there’s just about no way to maintain 30 FPS with my configuration in any plane more demanding than most GA addons. I used to get closer to 30 FPS, around 25-27. Now it’s closer to 22 with significant stutters because of Core 1 being pegged at 100%. The main culprit appears to be the airport scenery itself. DD’s installer has very few options to lower detail. So there’s not much I can do beside basically killing all auto gen and setting the draw distance to very low settings. 

[ha5mvo 237]

1 hour ago, JasonPC said:

I have noticed a decrease in performance in high scenery areas ever since 4.3. The subsequent patches and hot fixes have helped some, but what happens is that Core 1 just gets hammered more so than in previous versions which obviously impacts performance. The best example for me is DD KORD with ChicagoX installed. At gate C10 there’s just about no way to maintain 30 FPS with my configuration in any plane more demanding than most GA addons. I used to get closer to 30 FPS, around 25-27. Now it’s closer to 22 with significant stutters because of Core 1 being pegged at 100%. The main culprit appears to be the airport scenery itself. DD’s installer has very few options to lower detail. So there’s not much I can do beside basically killing all auto gen and setting the draw distance to very low settings. 

don't know if you're using AM, but a well documented tweak would be to open task manager, go to the affinity settings and simply reconfirm it (just hit OK). the result is core 1 drops from 100% to similar value as the rest of them.

[Mace 1,896]

On 11/10/2019 at 8:56 AM, FSXLiveries_com said:

  Sync and FPS Limiter tested on 3 different monitor refresh rates: 144/120/60Hz

Suggest you try 30 hz

Given that you're attempting to run 4K with an i5 and a 1070ti, it's asking a lot for any hardware to maintain 60 fps at all times.
I'd also ditch the overclock on the gfx card.  You're trying to dial in smoothness, so take out that extra variable at least until you establish smooth flight.  I'd also (temporarily) turn off ProcessLasso for the same reason.  You might in fact, use a lower resolution for testing purposes -- see if your hardware can be smooth at the lesser res first, and only then go to 4K.

30 hz refresh.  Vsync on, frame lock at unlimited.  That has given me the best results.

[JasonPC 173]

1 hour ago, ha5mvo said:

don't know if you're using AM, but a well documented tweak would be to open task manager, go to the affinity settings and simply reconfirm it (just hit OK). the result is core 1 drops from 100% to similar value as the rest of them.

I've tried that. What happens is it just switches which core is being pegged. No change in performance.